live mid limit.

extremely loose player open limps late.
I raise button ajx
SB extremely loose, but on the aggressive side tags along.
BB decentish tag calls(would 3! top 10ish% here, I think)

flop

j/4/10 rainbow.

x,bet, SB call, BB raise.

I ?

Obviously we're putting more action in, the question is now or turn?

Limper folded?

I like jamming flop.

Process: consider how different turns affect our equity. Q k are pretty bad where we don't feel great about raising turn (but wouldn't mind having 3b flop and barrel turn). t 4 9 8 aren't great either. Villain may also check back on many of these turn cards.

On the flop, however our Hand is strong enough to 3b/5b on the flop.

I'd 3 bet the flop.

I would also 3 bet the flop. I would just call a 4 bet given that several of the hands we are ahead of probably would have been 3 bet pre by the BB.

So what hands are you guys delaying value with? AA? JTs?

I don't delay anything here.

Open limper folded.


With the third wheel in and the ability to put him in a position to call 2cold... I 3! Bb snap 4!

I'd give him a range of aj or two pair, kq, maybe an over pair, or set. I don't think he'd 4! Kj, but its possible. I should 3! A pretty wide range with extra guy floating.


Plans for rest of hand? Calling down seems like obvious play anyone folding or putting in extra betson good turn or river cards?


* I feel pretty comfortable with how I played this hand, n felt its standard. Someone else was vocal about it so I'm curious if others feel how I do.

3! now and call down if V 4! and we don't improve or scare cards hit on turn/river.

**Edit: didn't see OP's reply. Good 3! and after V does that we have to give him credit. Solid TAG's understand the value of flop play. He's got something he likes. J-10s and 4-4 make the most sense along with a possible A-J chop. I think V would 3! pre here with 10-10.

I still think we call down. You could make a case for raising if we spike an A.

Not sure about 44 as pretty much has a hammerlock on the hand and is less worried about being counterfeited.....also; given that a chunk of hero's range is JJ/TT would 44 be really happy with 6-7 bets going in?

I agree re TT/JJ btw; if OP's read is correct then he'd raise these...he'd trap the loose sb in for a bunch of bets and be smashing hero's btn range to pieces as well (and would know that).

fwiw - call and look at turn; but you'd have a hard time getting me to fold...

No one else likes a 5b?

Good tag likely 3bs TT+ pre. Isn't this the best way to exploit his decapitated range? 6 combos of TJ; 3 combos of 44. Surely we can think of 9+ or 18+ combos of worse. JK itself is 8 combos. Then throw in a few draws. I guess 4Ts or 4Js is also possible for villain, but that only adds ~4 more combos.

AJ also blocks combos of TJ. I want to put in more action, but don't want to raise turn or river. 5b is my choice, barreling if things looks safe.

I definitely hear the argument for a 5! on flop, however if he is a decent TAG I think he's Hulk smashing here way more often with things we can't beat vs what we can.

I also think we have to consider 4-4 as even though he has the hand about cinched up, a decent TAG player will understand OP is playing with something he likes too. Putting myself as V if I had 4-4, I realize OP has 3! into two people on a relatively dry board. That tells me he's probably not folding a 4!. I still think V's action is consistent with someone who is strong and wants action.

If V were a LAGtard, drunk, etc. I could 5! this but not under the circumstances OP described. And yeah, laying this down never.

That's how I read it too.. probably beat, never folding.


He had j/10 but I hit ace on river... got a speech about putting in bets bad.. I loled.. but wanted to confirm my sanity


Thanks folks.

What hands are we expecting the ok tag to 4bet that we are happy to 5bet against? Why would he 4 bet KJ? Is our image that of a complete lunatic that would b/3b AK?

Did you raise the river?

Can't 5bet a live tag ever in this spot without very specific reads to the contrary. After he 4bets the flop our hand is a crying call down UI and nothing more. KJ for villain in this spot needs to be severely discounted. In the heat of battle I would assume zero combos for this hand to quickly guide my play, which I think is a very good approximation.

Hero played the hand well.

Here's how hero is doing on the flop vs a very optimistic range (I put all KJ combos in there even though I think close to none will show up and I also included all KQ combos even though this hand should be significantly discounted also, and even AJ should be somewhat discounted imo but all combos are in play):


On a blank turn we become a small equity favorite, but not even close to the equity we need to profitably raise-call down.

Worth noting, I think this thought process is a leak. I highly suspect there shouldn't be one spot in your entire game where you have a hand that you'd want to 5bet the flop HU in position because you don't think it's quite strong enough to raise the turn or river. If your hand is strong enough to put in another raise after someone 4 bets the flop, then you're better off calling the 4bet and raising the turn*. If it's not strong enough to take that aggressive line then call down UI. There is no middle ground barring very peculiar exceptions.

ILP is spot on, as usual.

Actually I might just call the flop raise, then raise / fold most turn cards.

Whether you should raise the river or not when the ace hits comes down to how many combos of KQ you put in villain's range. On the extreme ends, if all KQ combos are there, then it's a trivial crying call. If you think no combos of KQ are there, then it's a trivial raise/call. Against a range of AJ,JT,J4s,T4s,44,KQ, just 2 combos of KQ gets us to the point of indifference between raising/calling and just calling assuming villain never 3bets 44 or worse. Put just 3 combos of KQ in villain's range and we should just call.

This is bad. Against a range we are likely trailing, in a decent sized pot, why would we want to open up the action and give villain a chance to blow us off whatever equity we have.

Edit: Oh yeah, we are a small favorite on a blank turn against said range, but it's not worth going after with a raise. Those times we get blown off our equity will easily more than destroy the little profit we will milk out with a turn raise.

Are we that far behind his range after the first flop raise? Seems he could have lots of one pair hands, a few draws, etc.
It also could better protect against the SB's hand, if he is still in there.

And don't see how we will lose our equity; extremely unlikely villain will 3 bet turn without a hand we are drawing dead or close to dead against. Unlikely villain would even 3-bet turn with JT here.

****, i misread your post (for some reason i thought you meant calling the flop and raising the turn after villain 4bets). After the first check/raise, with another guy still active behind us, I'm taking Bob148's approach. Don't delay anything. I think that's the best approach here. I'm not giving the guy in the middle good odds to outdraw us, so it's time to raise for value right away. IOW make the best fundamental play here.

I wouldn't if he bet.

As played, he started verbally crying and checked. I bet..he called and tried to helicopter the j/10 into the ocean.

There's some live borgata(where hand happened) super loose passive that i'd have flatted to let in and then popped turn. The 3rd player on the flop was not one of those, at all.

I agree with you guys, that is a viable play raising the turn. It's hard for a TAG to 3! anything less than a set. That said if in doubt it's just as easy to put in 2 bets and see showdown vs the potential to be blown off a hand.

Re: Raising flop because we aren't strong enough to raise delay-turn

Been thinking about this a lot. Speaking about the idea in the abstract: Say that we are HU IP, facing a raise. We intend to put in another raise somewhere. Delaying 100% to raise turn is a popular strategy. BUT. Say we were to deviate from this, and have a flop-raise range and a turn-raise range. We'd want to save our stronger hands to delay. Ergo, we'd immediately raise with the weaker hands (exception being the strongest hands that want to raise to induce a villain reraise)

If we are 3way, there are a lot more variables. ILP says to immediately raise everything. But, again, if we want to deviate from this and want to have a flop-raise range and a delay-raise range, we would generally choose the stronger hands to delay with. i.e. the weaker strong hands we would raise OTF. (The exception again being the hands so strong we want to raise-reraise with.)

I don't think the concept I stated is erroneous.


In the actual hand, I change my tune and do think that 5b'ing is too aggressive. I misassessed the situation and thought ranges were wider.

snarky thought: ask the guy with JT to flip his hand face up next time on the flop to let you know not to 3 bet

a typical player will easily have worse jacks in his range making 3 betting correct. in this instance he was at the top of his range and you got lucky.

i wouldnt take any line that involves folding in a pot this big, either.