i posted this in response to a query in micros and decided, what the hell, i'll post it as a thread in SSL

in today's poker world there are a number of players who i would consider to be "bad tags." this is not to say they are losing players per say (indeed as long as you play tighter preflop than most and with a modicum of common sense i think its impossible to lose in live low/mid limit hold em), but in general when they went about learning the game they learned the wrong way, and thus their fundamental understanding of the game is flawed.

these players, whom I and many others like to call "tagfish," have certain defining characteristics, usually in some combination of the following.


1) they semibluff with no fold equity

2) they think calling down is for fish so they always play raise or fold

3) they play really tight and really aggressive. in other words they fold alot and then play mindlessly when they do play a hand

4) they berate and go on tilt when others suck out

5) they think players who play differently than they do are fish

6) they get pissed by donk bets

7) they hopelessly barrel w/o regards to opponents or the board texture

8) they dont understand concepts like pot equity and relative showdown value

9) they are obsessed with protecting their hands because of their propensity to tilt due to suckouts; thus the raise or fold philosophy

10) they tend to be results oriented, usually in the form of deciding they should have either folded preflop or protected their hand somehow


this can also be read as a kind of laundry list of leaks to avoid when learning how to crush limit games.

i would be interested in your thoughts as well as any other leaks that are common when trying to develop a good understanding of limit hold em strategy.

your personal favorite,
11. "I raised/bet to find out where I was at"
12. (then ignored what I found out because I didn't like it).

13) they aren't confident enough in their reads on loose passive to be able to bet/fold the river with TPTK type hands, and so they shake their heads in frustration and splash the pot as they pay off mindlessly

14) they follow strict starting hand charts without taking into account the specifics of the situation, ie. opponents tendencies. For example, Mr. old man rock opens UTG, they will probably 3bet AQo next in. But then when a laggy guy opens from late middle position, they will muck AJo without thinking twice.

15) they can't adapt well to shorthanded play and so they feel uncomfortable and ask for a table change if there are less than 9 players at the table.

16) they have memorized that late position is good and early position is bad, but they don't really understand the semantics behind why this is the case, and thus they don't make the proper adjustments preflop, ie. limping more speculative hands from late position to get involved in pots with bad players.

Loose-passive is the new Tight-aggressive IMO.

LAP, imo

Last year pretty much guilty on all 16 counts except #4 (berate-no Tilt-sometimes. Since 2p2, which I discovered in dec 08 to present, I have improved. Still have a few problems with some but working hard of them.

Thanks for a great info thread-missed this over at the microlimits.

#17) Don't forget: The pokersite is rigged. I see that alot.

How many of those have to apply before I can consider myself a "bad tag?"

17) they cannot seat select or table select worth a darn

I get pissed with donk bets too... I just don't tilt raise them with air like I used to.

simply tagfish are bad handreaders...

And yes they're often closeminded about trying new lines (2+2 can ingrain some bad habits) and don't evaluate every situation to try to think of the best way to play a given hand.

20) they are way too nitty with regards to calling raises out of the BB in mulitway pots

21) they fold too damn much postflop with stuff like middle pair + backdoor draws in large-ish pots (see Ed Miller or DougL). and then when they are told by 2p2ers that they fold too much, they take the calling concept too far, by treating every middle pair hand the same regardless of the board texture. once again, like kit said, they are playing mindlessly rather than situationally. they don't recognize that middle pair is a lot better on certain boards than on others, for example if there are a couple broadway cards on board then there is a good chance that you are already behind to a bigger 2pair on the flop. or where your card that gives you two pair also completes open-ended straight draws. or drawing to gutshots on monotone boards etc.

22) they don't look left to anticipate the action and gain information

23) they don't understand when to go for overcalls on the river with legitimate hands vs when to raise

24) they are obsessed with letting everyone else at the table know that they play well. they talk strategy with their opponents, which results in an image that is totally opposite of the one that they should be establishing. when they get sucked out on (see #4) they do their best to convince everyone that they played their hand well by using terms such as pot odds, which their opponents have probably never heard of, and will only result in their opponents playing more cautiously vs them in the future. also, when somebody else plays a hand poorly, they make sure to let that person know that it was a poor play and why. oh and also they love to show their bluffs for some reason.

25) They get all pissy when some guy decides he wants to straddle every hand and pissy x 3 if it happens to be their BB.
26) Raise or Fold PF... I can not limp unless 6 others have limped in front. EP limp = WTFBAD! LOL

27) They think today's poker is not "poker" but bingo w/ cards since too many people are seeing a flop w/ crap. Obviously they want their opponents to play "better" LOL

Yeah, kinda. Actually it's being able to be all styles of poker in the right spots (TP, TAG, LAG, LP), but people don't extol the virtues of LP/TP enough IMO, so it's fun to say.

beginning of epic thread imo.

Like a recovering alcoholic I have passed through all these stages of the game in my poker evolution. I still have trouble with 9, 11/12, 14, 22 and 24 ( which is really bad cause there's no excuse for it).

By far the worst sin is 5. Learning starts by recognizing that you're not always right.

It is strange you say this; I've come to treasure donk betting players.

I was 4 tabling 5/T the other day and had 2 60/x players on my immediate right on one of the tables that both stayed there for over 300 hands... both were inclined to donk. I ended up the session around even but I checked the session tab before I left and I was stuck 90 bets at that table lol.

So ya I love having fish around, but getting donked into every hand when you can't flop a pair starts to get really old. If you're running hot then sure bring them on imo.

I think you're looking at it backwards.

+1

It's kinda fun to "let 'em know where they're at"... on the turn.

LOL... reminds me of my post last night in the micros NC thread...

He sure showed me where I was at on the turn!

Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO posts a big blind (1 SB)

MP1 posts a big blind (1 SB)

Pre Flop: (3.5 SB) Hero is BB with 5 2
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 checks, MP2 raises, 1 fold, BTN calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold

Flop: (12.5 SB) 3 4 6 (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, BTN calls

Turn: (7.75 BB) J (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, BTN folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls

River: (13.75 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls

Final Pot: 15.75 BB
MP2 mucks A A
Hero shows 5 2 (a straight, Six high)
Hero wins 15 BB
(Rake: $3.00)

Nice list and at one point in the last 6 years I was guilty of most if not all but I have resolved most of them. Some of the more difficult ones are a still work in process. It would be nice to break them into the level of difficulty to fix. Some are strategy leaks and some are psychological leaks.

Live poker often does resemble bingo but we like them to play that way.

Live poker is no different than online poker in this respect when looking at comparable limits.

In bingo, each person has the exact same EV/card. This is definitely not true in poker unless you are playing some no-peeky game in your local home game.

I do agree that "we like them to play that way"! This is where our biggest edge comes from.

There is a regular player that I play with that will leave the table when there are only 9 players when it is his BB. He is the first to tell the floor that there is a seat open.

So we go from 10-8 not stopping at 9 for long. I will play as low a 4 players until more arrive. If it stays at 5 for an extended period I might quit. 7-10 is fine with me.

This guy annoys the other players. I just think he is amusing and slightly weird.

28 - this might not be a TAG issue but it is bad for the game.

Paying tight like a nit might change the mood of the table. Sunday I was playing and everyone was socializing and having a good time so the game was good and the mood light and lively. Lots of people seeing the flop and not paying a lot attention to the game. The guy next to me had a loud voice so I put on my iPhone to cancel out some of the noise since he was hurting my ear. I dropped into a shell and that changed the mood of the game and I had not intended to do that. After a bid I put the iphone away and joined into the conversation so the mood returned and game picked up some. I asked the guy to my right to lower his voice and that worked.

The game is supposed to be fun and profitable. If the player is taking he can not be counting outs.

Yeah.. this is true.

There is a definite difference though between playing tight and looking tight. I ALWAYS try to keep light jovial conversations going at the table about anything NOT directly related to specific poker situations happening in our game.

Recently, baseball has been a very good topic with the Giants trying to make a playoff push. When you are able to keep the convo light and have many people involved, they tend to notice you folding almost every hand far less.