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05-12-2016 , 03:06 PM
FWIW, I'm raising ATs and KJs from UTG 8 handed.

I think those unsuited combos are close, I'm raising AJo and KQo there, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
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05-13-2016 , 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41
These are not good hands utg 8 handed. They just aren't.
I start to open these UTG+2 unless the game is particularly agro. If it is a soft lower limit game I think you can profitably open these earlier since you won't get punished as often and will be up against dominated hands more.
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05-13-2016 , 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munga30
66
66's seem a bit early UTG+1.
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05-13-2016 , 11:09 AM
Lets say a winning TAG opens UTG 9 handed in a 20/40 game. Assume it is a typical game. Assume the blinds are tight regs.

What adjustments do I need to make to my 3 bet range between being UTG+1 and having it folded to me on the button?

For example, I would 3 bet 99's on the button but should I muck it UTG+1 given my poor position?
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05-13-2016 , 11:09 AM
Does "open" mean "raise" or "call" or either? I think it makes a difference itt.
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05-13-2016 , 11:11 AM
open = open raise
limp = call
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05-13-2016 , 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41
FWIW, I'm raising ATs and KJs from UTG 8 handed.

I think those unsuited combos are close, I'm raising AJo and KQo there, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
I usually raise KJs,QJs,JTs UTG. In softer games I will raise KTs and QTs. Is this ok or too loose?
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05-13-2016 , 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
open = open raise
limp = call
So "open limp" doesn't make sense? I thought "open" just means first to voluntarily put money in the pot.
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05-13-2016 , 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceyPlay
So "open limp" doesn't make sense? I thought "open" just means first to voluntarily put money in the pot.
You can open for a limp, but most people here would mean raising when saying "UTG opens".
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05-13-2016 , 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagatron
I usually raise KJs,QJs,JTs UTG. In softer games I will raise KTs and QTs. Is this ok or too loose?
It is too loose/aggressive. If you have a black hat on PTR, carry on.
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05-14-2016 , 08:09 AM
I think you could drop QTs and JTs and you wouldn't be losing much value, if any at all.
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05-14-2016 , 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagatron
I usually raise KJs,QJs,JTs UTG. In softer games I will raise KTs and QTs. Is this ok or too loose?
It'd be in the ballpark if 6 handed. There are 8 players behind you otherwise.
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05-14-2016 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagatron
I start to open these UTG+2 unless the game is particularly agro. If it is a soft lower limit game I think you can profitably open these earlier since you won't get punished as often and will be up against dominated hands more.
At a 9 handed table, when talking about UTG there's no such thing as profitability opening ATo, KJo because you won't get punished. Even against terrible players you'll be up against a top 5% hand most of the time!* It doesn't get any better with a couple of bad players calling their suited Ax, Kx, Qx (with the top 5% hand seeing the flop)

* Top 7-8% for it to be TRULY most of the time, but we are still behind every hand in that range.

Last edited by Chasqui; 05-14-2016 at 06:11 PM.
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05-18-2016 , 12:45 AM
Extremely loose (~60%) passive player limps. TAG opening up a bit to isolate the limper raises; he's 3 off the button. Two pretty loose passive players call; they both have 3-betting ranges, and they're both probably too tight, but they will call a pretty wide range here. Very laggy guy calls. What are the best and worst offsuit/suited hands we call in the SB?
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05-18-2016 , 12:52 AM
1/3, 2/3, or 1/2 blind structure?
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05-18-2016 , 01:13 AM
1/2
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05-18-2016 , 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntndrew
...Two pretty loose passive players call... they're both probably too tight...
Huh?
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05-18-2016 , 10:03 AM
Sorry, that should read that their 3-betting ranges are too small, i.e., it's not that they never 3-bet, but they'll still have some pretty strong hands in their cold calling range.
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05-18-2016 , 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntndrew
Extremely loose (~60%) passive player limps. TAG opening up a bit to isolate the limper raises; he's 3 off the button. Two pretty loose passive players call; they both have 3-betting ranges, and they're both probably too tight, but they will call a pretty wide range here. Very laggy guy calls. What are the best and worst offsuit/suited hands we call in the SB?
good question.

Im wondering how being OOP and up against potentially dominated hands given your read on the cold callers affects our decision. This is obviously going to be a big pot so equity wise we can play a lot of hands. The BB should be calling a ton.

i would 3 bet AQo for sure. I would just call AJ but maybe thats a 3 too. I would call ATo but fold A9o. I would call any Axs. I would 3 bet ATs. I would 3 bet KJs.

I am not sure what my worst Kxs to call with should be. Maybe K7s?

I would call QJo...Not sure about QTo

I would call Q9s...not sure how much worse.

This is a situation I am not 100% confident in my ranges. I'll be curious to here what others say.
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05-18-2016 , 12:50 PM
What is the worst Axo hands you are opening from LJ, HJ, and CO? Assume a typical 20/40 game.
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05-19-2016 , 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagatron
What is the worst Axo hands you are opening from LJ, HJ, and CO? Assume a typical 20/40 game.
FWIW, I'm using these ranges (never played live though, so I don't know how typical $20/$40 game looks like):

LJ = ATo; HJ = A7o; CO = A5o, BU = SB = Axo

LJ = A5s; HJ = Axs
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05-19-2016 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntndrew
Extremely loose (~60%) passive player limps. TAG opening up a bit to isolate the limper raises; he's 3 off the button. Two pretty loose passive players call; they both have 3-betting ranges, and they're both probably too tight, but they will call a pretty wide range here. Very laggy guy calls. What are the best and worst offsuit/suited hands we call in the SB?
I don't have a specific range for this spot. Though given the pot odds, I'd be tempted to call a lot. For comparison, if I were in the BB and I was getting 8:1 pot odds on my call, I would be calling with more than 80% of hands. Due to worse position (and with more players behind me), this is probably too wide range for this particular spot. But I'm curious, whether continuing with ~50% of hands here would be profitable. Something like pp, xys, Axo, all offsuit combos with both hole cards >9, 98o-54o.
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05-19-2016 , 03:27 PM
are you advocating calling 1.5 bets PF in the small blind with 54o?

because that's really bad
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05-20-2016 , 01:20 AM
Range estimates:

fish limper: 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T3s+,95s+,85s+,75s+,64s+,5 4s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o
TAG ISO'er: 66+,A9s+,KTs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+
two standard loose passives:
99-22,AJs-A2s,K8s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,43 s,AJo-A7o,K9o+,Q9o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o
LAG caller:
66-22,A9s-A2s,K9s-K2s,Q9s-Q5s,J9s-J7s,T6s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,A9o-A2o,KTo-K9o,Q9o+,J9o+,T8o+,98o,87o
BB calling range:
66-22,ATs-A2s,KTs-K2s,QTs-Q2s,J2s+,T2s+,95s+,84s+,73s+,62s+,52s+,43s,ATo-A2o,KJo-K2o,Q4o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o,76o

Odds when BB calls and limper calls: ~8:1

SB equity against above ranges:
AQo: 16.5%
AJo: 14.5%
ATo: 13%
A9o: 10.9%
A2o: 10.2%
KQo: 16%
KJo: 13.9%
QJo: 13.4%
QTo: 12.6%
JTo: 12.3%
T9o: 11%
KJs: 17.8%
KTs: 16.6%
K5s: 14%
QJs: 17%
Q5s: 13.6%
J6s: 12.5%
T6s: 12.7%
T5s: 12%
95s: 12.4%
92s: 11%
For kicks, 54o: 13.2% (hey, there are times we're not dominated!)

Before running this my gut would have been that T9o would be the first offsuit hand to easily hit the muck, and I'd strongly consider folding the weaker offsuit broadways QJo/QTo/JTo. I'd be OK with calling a lot of gapped hands that can make both a straight and a flush like maybe as low as J7s, but I wouldn't even consider a hand like Q5s.

Now I'm left wondering: we're most often putting in 1/9 of the money with a call (and in the model at least having the BB fold more than he 3-bets). So should we be looking at calling all of these 12-16% hands, or are the costs of being out of position such that we want to cut out a lot of the low end?
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05-20-2016 , 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntndrew
Range estimates:

fish limper: 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T3s+,95s+,85s+,75s+,64s+,5 4s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o
TAG ISO'er: 66+,A9s+,KTs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+
two standard loose passives:
99-22,AJs-A2s,K8s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,43 s,AJo-A7o,K9o+,Q9o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o
LAG caller:
66-22,A9s-A2s,K9s-K2s,Q9s-Q5s,J9s-J7s,T6s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,A9o-A2o,KTo-K9o,Q9o+,J9o+,T8o+,98o,87o
BB calling range:
66-22,ATs-A2s,KTs-K2s,QTs-Q2s,J2s+,T2s+,95s+,84s+,73s+,62s+,52s+,43s,ATo-A2o,KJo-K2o,Q4o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o,76o

Odds when BB calls and limper calls: ~8:1

SB equity against above ranges:
AQo: 16.5%
AJo: 14.5%
ATo: 13%
A9o: 10.9%
A2o: 10.2%
KQo: 16%
KJo: 13.9%
QJo: 13.4%
QTo: 12.6%
JTo: 12.3%
T9o: 11%
KJs: 17.8%
KTs: 16.6%
K5s: 14%
QJs: 17%
Q5s: 13.6%
J6s: 12.5%
T6s: 12.7%
T5s: 12%
95s: 12.4%
92s: 11%
For kicks, 54o: 13.2% (hey, there are times we're not dominated!)

Before running this my gut would have been that T9o would be the first offsuit hand to easily hit the muck, and I'd strongly consider folding the weaker offsuit broadways QJo/QTo/JTo. I'd be OK with calling a lot of gapped hands that can make both a straight and a flush like maybe as low as J7s, but I wouldn't even consider a hand like Q5s.

Now I'm left wondering: we're most often putting in 1/9 of the money with a call (and in the model at least having the BB fold more than he 3-bets). So should we be looking at calling all of these 12-16% hands, or are the costs of being out of position such that we want to cut out a lot of the low end?
This IMO. I'd probably throw away anything with < 13% equity given this price and being OOP. Power of suitedness is pretty big as your stove shows (though I'm actually surprised Q5s has more equity than ATo).
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