Well, thank goodness for that! Nit that I may be I'm raising that turn against V as described every time.

Someone PM a mod that Howard gets one gold star added

Ya if it gets called behind me on the flop, I'm pretty much fine raising most turns for value and calling a 3 bet from this villain (played a hand a few nights ago where a player had auto-selected to 3 bet the turn on a draw, for example). These guys don't like folding and we have top pair.

When we raise, the field is also faced with a sandwich possibility. Players behind will take this into account, so saying they get 8:1 is inaccurate. I can see a lot of bottom pair folding, whether correctly or incorrectly, and possibly GS and middle pair. Protecting against PP's is good, especially ones that can hit runner runner straight. There's also no guarantee spaz SB will barrel turn if its called around on flop. I'm not saying that raising flop is clearly better than delaying. Just wouldn't rule it out.

My fault for assuming "easy flop raise" doesn't mean you've ruled out the alternative or that you think it's clearly better.

Waiting to pop the turn isn't always going to be best but everybody kept saying what an easy raise the flop should be and I disagree. Bare mimium it shouldn't just be an autoraise. Makes more sense why people want to fold pf though

Touche.

Flop raise is still standard. A9 should be well ahead of the 3 cold callers, and with card removal well ahead of UTG range. You're paranoid if you don't think our hand is best most of the time.

Thist was probably my fault since i did not realize we were 6 to the flop.
I never see 6 players in a hand usually
i thought we were at max 5 the way the hand was described. at first glance i understood that SB was in the 3 callers which he was not i presume after rereading it.
Make it a 4 player pot and i think the flop is an auto-raise.

But still, i agree with phunk it should be a bit hard for them to call 2 cold on the flop when we raise, with 5 out like bottom pair or gutshot when the action is not close when they call, knowing the SB is very aggro on top of that and that he could reopen the betting by 3betting.

Wait for the turn certainly has lot of merits and maybe is better.


The last part i just do not understand it tho.

You only need to protect your hand though if you're ahead. We don't know the positions of the three callers which actually makes a big difference in this spot. All the bigger aces are easily in play at this stake from any of them. The SB being a loon increases the chances there are still two aces in play. In fact if you raise the flop and are cold called you're probably ****ed and should already be looking to showdown cheap or bail. And maybe that's a reason to raise the flop if you don't think a better ace will 3 bet the flop

On a A678 board I'd rather let him keep all his bluffs than get 3bet by all the better hands he may have. Are we really looking to showdown for 4BB the times we are behind? The pot is 8BB when the action is on us.

I'll think about this some more, but still not convinced.

let say you do not raise turn to let him bluff fine, dont t you at least raise the river vs that guy ?

I'm having a hard time finding hands that call us and we beat if the river bricks: A2-A5(minus the one with his kicker) Villain is described as very aggressive, not stupid. If villain will call a river raise with ANY pair then of course the raise can be considered (there are a lot of two pair set and straight combos that are reasonable)

Are you calling if 3bet at 14:1? (I imagine it's almost a rhetorical question)

I'm raising at least 20% of the time when we make our straight or river an A. Maybe 6% more on a river 9 where we beat the 45 two pair combos.

It's has nothing to with being being paranoid and more to win not just smashing buttons because we flopped an ace if I think there's a better line

May be true on this turn card, my comments werent taking the 7 in to consideration. I was just speaking to a more general plan formed on the flop. The 7 should mean he has no "bluffs" that he can't at least see the river with

Looking at his value range of reasonable hands, due to the coordinated board:

- We are quite behind 45 reasonable combos of two pairs, 12-18 combos of sets, 16 combos or A, 16 (average) combos of straights, 12 of which we are virtually drawing dead to.

- We are ahead of 32 combos of A, and 9 combos of 89, plus a few 79

If raising the turn makes him fold all his bluffs (maybe A2-A3?! gasp) we are in bad shape against the range above because he's 3 betting all the hands that are ahead of us in a huge pot.

Had the turn been a total blank (K,Q,J, 2-5, 6) or improvemet then raising is the best play by far.

Raising the river the 25% of the time we improve isn't too shabby either.

I've said this before but it amazes me when I read this. A9o is just an absurdly better hand than 73s in just about every situation possible (unless he turns over AA pre).


Postlfop: Zomg making to much sense so I assume everyone disagrees with him (didn't read other posts tbh)

Call flop and raise most turns if nobody jams flop is likely best

I know what you're saying but I'm coming from this perspective: Flopping an Ace at live 8-16 v. 5 players pf for a raise when we are holding A-9o OOP is going to lead to spew much of the time. I said I'd fold it pf and I would bec that's what happens to me. So maybe I'm a bad player but I'm not THAT bad and that's been my experience. The 7-3s is easy to play for the 1 SB that we toss in. And, ofc, I'm a nit.

Id much rather deal with A9 on A82 then 73 on 10-8-3.

When we flop a pair and nobody can turn a higher pair, thats worth a lot

How do you know you aren't winning 1 out of 9 times, by feel? How accurate is this?

When the pot is 15 bets on the flop it's not a catastrophe if the raiser has a better ace, we can call profitably! You are once again disregarding the size of the pot.

Comparing the isolated case when we flop a pair, turning aces up is a much stronger hand multiway than bottom two pair. In the latter case we need to dodge half the deck.

This isn't really relevant. If you knew raiser had a better ace, you would certainly want to fold preflop. It's not a benefit that you put so much money in bad that you now have to put in more money bad, hoping to get lucky.

We don't know he has better ace pre flop. We don't know we are going to both flop an ace. What I said is when that particular situation happens, it's not a catastrophe equitywise. When a worst case scenario is close to break even, it's VERY relevant.

Of course we don't know. But if he does, it is a bad thing for us. You're acting like it's no big deal, because the pot is big. Of course if the pot odds are there we have to call for a 3 outer. But it actually IS a disaster, it's nothing we should feel good about.

And if you know he has any hand thats not an AX (happens quite a lot) A9 is just massively better than 73s.

How is it not relevant. If its a 500 splash pot, UTG turns over AK and opens we call. While thats not the case here there obviously exists a point where making Aces up is worth something, and that something is considerably more than 7s up