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Monotone flop.

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07-11-2016 , 01:00 PM

mongidig

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,030

Let's say 4 players limp, we raise on the button and both blinds call. 7 way to the flop.

7c4c2c.....We have red TT's...do we C bet or not and why?
We have red AA's...do we C bet or not and why?

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07-11-2016 , 03:06 PM

chillrob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23,110

In my experience it would be highly unusual for it to be checked to the raiser with so many players on a flop like this.

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07-11-2016 , 03:11 PM

asmitty

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,634

I would bet for value and would re-evaluate if raised. You will probably lose over half the time regardless of what you do, but you will win slightly more frequently and will win much larger pots if you bet the flop (and a safe turn card if the action is the same).

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07-11-2016 , 03:32 PM

Montrealcorp

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 16,746

The only hand that i think should check is TT because you equity is not that high ( coin flip vs 1 person with 1 overcard and a club) and the turn should really help your hand if no overcard or club hit .

But in either case i would bet the flop with both hands, hands with low club or high card like QJo (its possible thet have it )in your opponents hands might fold depending where they are relative to your position when you have TT.

With AA you just loose value by checking .

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07-11-2016 , 03:46 PM

Old Ghost

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 57

betting both. With 10 10 we can get hands with 2 overs to our hand with no club to fold which we want. With AA we don't care about those hands, but are betting to get value from hands with one club or a pair. Even 7 ways I assume I have the best hand until the action indicates otherwise in both spots.

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07-13-2016 , 08:39 AM

mongidig

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,030

I'm gonna play Devils advocate.

It seems to me that you can still get value and protect your hand by checking back and raising blank turns. I think you can induce bluffs as well.

With TT's I'm wondering how the benefits of getting hands we want to fold on the flop compares to putting in one or two bets and the possibility of a club coming on the turn. I'm assuming that if a club comes we are toast assuming it's still MW.

I usually bet in both spots.

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07-13-2016 , 12:35 PM

ChocolateMoo

adept

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 846

what do we do with AxJc and KxQc in this situation?

i think we should bet TT here. we want to punish callers when we have the stronger parts of our range. if players will call on this board with hands like small pps or 7x no club, theyll be drawing nearly dead multiway.when they fold, its great for our specific hand (TT). when they call, its great for our other parts of our range (dangerous for specifically TT).

im betting A7s/KQ(1 club)/A[J-K](1 club)/AA-88/all flushes. when i check, im planning to give up U/I.

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07-14-2016 , 08:39 AM

bipolarbearclaw

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 340

If you bet almost everyone will fold KQ/QJ no club .

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07-16-2016 , 02:38 PM

mongidig

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,030

What if we were in early position with several people to act. Is this still a bet?

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07-20-2016 , 02:40 PM

#10

Eric

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,336

In the heat of battle I would bet both.

Thinking about it, I think betting TT and checking AA may be the way to go. It all hinges on the KQJs out there. The clubs are going to do what they do. TT wants to fold the overcards, AA wants the over cards to hit and call at least a turn bet. You lose some value from the clubs on the flop, but you might make it up when someone hits a big pair. You also save a bet when the club hits on the turn.

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07-20-2016 , 02:54 PM

#11

Chasqui

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,749

I agree that if you insist on checking, AA is the better candidate.

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07-22-2016 , 01:56 AM

#12

Montrealcorp

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 16,746

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasqui

I agree that if you insist on checking, AA is the better candidate.

really ?
So you rather check a hand with great equity (AA) that would not change much between flop and turn (unless of course a club hit)) but you would bet a hand that might be weaker than a coin flip ( 2overcard with a club) but if a safe card hit the turn when you take the free card , your equity should be much better .

Imo not putting the money in when we have good equity on the flop (AA) and putting money in on the flop when we are at best a coin flip (TT) is wrong...

We should put the money when we have the advantage, not the other way around.

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07-22-2016 , 05:36 PM

#13

Chasqui

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,749

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montrealcorp

We should put the money when we have the advantage, not the other way around.

I agree with this statement, but if we bet, all the JQKA that don't hold any of the suit will fold. That's 12 cards I wouldn't want to give for free multiway. We are 50% against the FD with an over, but if we check it will probably be a lot less* Getting this HU at 50% would be a huge succes!

I would bet the AA for value, but I'd check if I had to choose between them. We can raise all non flush non top pairing turns.

* I haven't done any analysis of this in a long time so I'm going by intuition which could be totally wrong.

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07-28-2016 , 11:13 PM

#14

PaulValente

grinder

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 645

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasqui

but if we bet, all the JQKA that don't hold any of the suit will fold.

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07-29-2016 , 04:47 PM

#15

Chasqui

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,749

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulValente

You are right, not all are folding. But even half of them folding increases out equity by quite a bit.

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