Folds to player 4 off the button who limps. Hero raises K T
Unknown middle aged guy 3-bets in CO. 100 year old fish cold calls 3 on the button. Blinds fold. Folds to original limper who calls. Hero calls.

Flop is Q J T

Check. Hero checks. UMAG checks. Fish checks.

Turn J

Check. Hero checks. UMAG bets. Fish calls. Fold. Hero calls.

River T

Hero ??

I know you are closing the action and getting 88,045:1, but not sure I like the call pre... without a read I would guess the middle aged guy's range slaughters you and you're oop on him for the hand.

As played; I would check/call....I don't think much worse is ever going to call us here and he can bluff if he was just trying it on(88,99 or some other stuff) ...obviously you can't fold. Also, if it goes bet/raise (which I know is unlikely but...) you can depart stage left...

Wait you're suggesting hero fold getting 12.5:1 preflop? Wat

I fold if it's 88041:1 but call 12.5:1.

Hero should check hoping that fish calls a bet with less than bottom full house?

Meh, I'm not that crazy about raising this PF. If it was suited I would. It's so unlikely you'll isolate in this spot in a 4/8 game unless the table is super tight for the stakes. I think I would just limp in. It's such a marginal hand.

Flop is fine. I'd also check the turn.

I think I'd just bet the river because that board could slow the other player down. We beat a lot of queens that the other players could easily call with, and with a fish and a possible queen or two out there I'm looking to get calls from those players. The middle aged guy will have a range like AA, KK, AK (which made a straight), and possibly AQs or AQ although I'm skeptical he would 3-bet with any AQ hands. I'd worry about QQ and JJ which have a much smaller number of combos, and many players won't even 3-bet JJ. People make plenty of bad calls at 4/8 and that's what I would be counting on here. I think 4/8 players would have a tough time laying down KK or AK here and will make a crying call, especially if the last card puts them on tilt.

I'd quickly call a raise from the fish unless he is super nitty. If the middle aged guy raises, you'll get to see what the fish does first before you make your decision. Fortunately I think this will happen only a small percentage of the time. Based on the range I put him on it looks like you probably should fold to a raise from him.

Bet turn bet river

I disagree with a lot of the reasoning here. Preflop we have an easy raise. There is more to raising than just isolation plays.

If the CO 3bets AA/KK, I think they would bet the flop every time. The flop check is more likely a monster.

I think calling a river raise from any of these players is bad.

Oh wow I somehow forgot about the fact that villain checked the flop! Well that definitely changes things. I can't believe I missed that. I'm sure that AA or KK bets the flop so no argument there.

^I still think I'd bet the river though. Villain played this hand in a strange way but I still see a lot of AK in that range (which could have slowplayed the flop), and I think I'd throw in a few AQ combos.

If the villain in the CO raises the river I'd fold. Only a hand that beats us makes sense there. On second thought (Man was I half asleep the last time I posted in this thread?) it looks like you should also fold to a raise from the fish as well. There's only 1 more ten out there compared to a couple of jacks, and a ten is less likely to raise the river. Plus you're just splitting with another ten anyway so you would only be calling for half the pot at best unless the raise is a crazy bluff.

With PF the opponents behind me, the exact position we're in, and the way previous hands played out PF would make a difference for me. I think it's an easy raise from the CO. From the HJ? Sure I'll raise. Any earlier than that and I'm not so sure. These games can be so loose that even raising in the CO to buy the BTN can be hard enough. I guess I'm okay with a raise now because I'm thinking it doesn't matter much.

Interesting river spot. Given how MP played the hand, it seems most likely that MP either has a hand that can't call the river (ie 99, 88) or checked a monster on the flop. Given there are a ton of AK combos compared to flopped sets now and we want to get value from Btn, I would just lead.

Given they are both unknowns, I would not fold to a raise.

I'm ok with turn check. Still somewhat unlikely we're ahead. When we are ahead, giving a free card isn't a disaster as we have the A & 9 covered with a K blocker.

I play all streets the same and would b/c river. River is a crying call but folding boats in limit hold em is a road to ruin.

Betting is probably better than checking since they are unknowns and you don't know if the middle man stops betting. So it's possible that the river gets checked thru.

I just would be sad if it went bet, raise, BTN folds; then you call and lose.

I can't think of a reason to not call one more if it's raised. Maybe you win, maybe you chop.

To be clear I like the turn check. And fine I won't fold a boat on the river, but I tend to c/c this spot and not b/c.

Slide I like your reasoning, and I certainly have been wrong before. But if we check river we lose 1 bet when behind when we c/c, and we might get him to put in a bet with a hand we beat. Compare that to the situation when we bet. Villains may fold hands we beat and a raise is more likely a hand that beats us. For example, AK may bet river, but I don't think villain raises AK if we lead out.

My initial impression was to check, too, but I'm not sure that's best. I don't want to get raised, obviously when bottom boat is bad, but not to knock out the prossible* 1 BB overlay of the BTN.

I would think that betting out of position (not that BTN is assumed to be all that positionally aware), and all the sudden waking up on the double paired river, would also encourage BTN to fold instead of calling the river c-bet of the man in the middle.

Maybe the better players that haven't chimed in have an opinion they'd like to share?

*prossible = probable + possible

I'm assuming this 4/8 is similar to 4/8 games I've played in Vegas. If the games are different somewhere else (like California) then I might look at certain things differently.

The OP will rarely get raised on the river in this spot unless the table is one of those crazy, aggressive type of tables that occasionally get going at 4/8. The bet is such a strong move that it's much more likely to get extra folds than extra bluffs IMO. I still like betting and think a c/c is a loser in the long run. We will almost certainly be calling bets from mostly jacks or better (which have us beat) and only the occasional ten or something else, which are far more likely to check. If we bet, even though it could encourage opponents to fold, they are loose enough to make calls with weaker hands that will be a significant part of their range. The calls they make with hands like queens or AK would almost certainly be hands that will check if we decide to c/c.

Low limit players I've played against have a tendency to check the river way too much when they are actually holding a pretty strong hand, maybe because they fear getting raised or are happy to win what's there. I think they would rarely bet with worse than a ten unless they are a very reckless type of player.

If you have big problems with tilt then I think it's better to call the river if you bet and get raised.

If you bet the river, I think you might even get calls from jacks sometimes because other players will sometimes assume you wouldn't bet with anything less than that (this will happen more often if you're facing a 4/8 regular). If you're facing someone who looks like he has almost never played before then they might think "OMG I caught a ten for a full house!" Players like that will tend to raise more often. The other villain is described as a 100 year old fish. I'd be surprised if that villain raises the river with anything worse than a ten. Unless that villain has shown a tendency to spew with reckless raises, I tend to think of fish as being loose and passive.

What hands will villain(s) bet that we beat if we check? He may value bet AK, but I wouldn't be confident on that. He will however, probably always call it off. I'd be surprised if he bluffed 99 or 88 on the river. I think there is a chance we may even get an Ace Hi call from Btn if we lead and MP folds.

I bet the turn.

PRE raise, then call. Folding for one small bet is horribad. Even if villain only raises KK+, you should call. If you think about folding, you should think about quitting poker instead.

FLOP check

TURN check. The only hands we are ahead of are 99-, A9(?). Much more likely someone behind is LOLslowplaying. If ahead, giving a free card isn't a disaster.

RIVER bet/fold. Seriously, no one at 4/8 bluff raises river, let alone on a double paired board. Many won't even raise a bare J.

there are some spots I'm OK w/ raising a limper with a hand like KTo but they are pretty far between. I mean if his range is full of jankie FDs and Flat out OS junk then OK if the blinds are tight and the BTN is predictable.

I mean like this is a good example we basically smashed the flop pretty good but OP is still lost.

I probably fire the turn but can back off super quick

as played there is no way you should fold and really no reason to raise.

flatting makes overcalling excruciatingly difficult so.....check call for zeebo's sake?

I don't think preflop is terrible, but I'm not in love with it either. I want reads, tells, something that gives me reason to expect that we'll get head-up with the player who opened for a single bet. Or we want more of a hand. We're either in the HJ (BTN - 2) or LJ (BTN - 3). I'd want something more like KQo, maybe KJo in the HJ, and making adjustments based on reads. So absent a read I'm thinking muck this hand. But if we're playing, we're raising.

But we do raise the open-caller, and what happens is about as bad as it gets. That said, I think this is completely wrong:
Once we're involved in the hand, folding for one more bet is a great big mistake, a please-come-sit-in-my-game mistake. Call the additional bet, and play the flop and turn just like the OP did.

Come the river, I think we bet out, because we want a bet to go in the pot, and we can't trust the CO to keep firing. We aren't going to like it if it comes back to us raised, but we shouldn't fold for one more bet either.