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KQhh KQhh

03-07-2023 , 02:27 AM
Here’s a fun one of sorts. Looking for a combined turn/river line here. FYI this hand was played by a friend who is known as a bit of a nit. The blind is a bad lag but knows Heros image.

Hero open cutoff with KQhh, villain three bets big blind, call. Heads up

Flop 943 one heart. Bet/call

Turn 9h. BB now checks.

If we bet turn, what do we do on blank rivers?
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03-07-2023 , 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
Here’s a fun one of sorts. Looking for a combined turn/river line here. FYI this hand was played by a friend who is known as a bit of a nit. The blind is a bad lag but knows Heros image.

Hero open cutoff with KQhh, villain three bets big blind, call. Heads up

Flop 943 one heart. Bet/call

Turn 9h. BB now checks.

If we bet turn, what do we do on blank rivers?
I'd bet/call turn.

Value bet/call blank river in attempt to induce vs LAG.
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03-07-2023 , 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maka2184
I'd bet/call turn.

Value bet/call blank river in attempt to induce vs LAG.
You are insane.
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03-08-2023 , 01:54 AM
By default this would be a check back on the turn. BB should have plenty of better hands he checked but intends to get to showdown with, so you can't just go ham with all your draws. You have weaker draws to bet as bluffs, so KQhh sits nicely as a hand with enough showdown value where you can check turn and treat it as a bluffcatcher on the river unimproved.

Now, I don't really know what to do about the fact that in this case, BB is a "bad lag" who knows he is up against a nit. Does that mean his BB 3b range is wider than usual, narrower than usual, or maybe about the same because his lagginess balances out with the opener's nitiness? Is his checking range super weak because he is going to overbarrel turns? I mean, if this guy checking turn is like always a give up, I'd just go ahead and bet.
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03-08-2023 , 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardinthepaint
By default this would be a check back on the turn. BB should have plenty of better hands he checked but intends to get to showdown with, so you can't just go ham with all your draws. You have weaker draws to bet as bluffs, so KQhh sits nicely as a hand with enough showdown value where you can check turn and treat it as a bluffcatcher on the river unimproved.

Now, I don't really know what to do about the fact that in this case, BB is a "bad lag" who knows he is up against a nit. Does that mean his BB 3b range is wider than usual, narrower than usual, or maybe about the same because his lagginess balances out with the opener's nitiness? Is his checking range super weak because he is going to overbarrel turns? I mean, if this guy checking turn is like always a give up, I'd just go ahead and bet.
I would think the BB is 3 betting a very tight range against a CO nit open. I would check back the turn if I was the CO. The BB probably has AK. I would doubt he would put a nit on a 9 but maybe he is checking a good pair. I agree with you that there are better hands to bluff and if I was a nit I would be barrelling off those hands on some rivers.
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03-08-2023 , 01:42 PM
I concur that range is super tight here but weighted more toward good aces when he checks turn. However, nit should use his image to his advantage here and bet turn, intending to bet all non ace, non board pairing rivers as a bluff. What’s the point of peeling the flop if you are going to check back this card?

That said, I don’t super hate a turn check, but with the intention of folding most rivers we don’t hit.

What hero actually did was bet turn and then check back a blank river, which i really hate.
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03-08-2023 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
I concur that range is super tight here but weighted more toward good aces when he checks turn. However, nit should use his image to his advantage here and bet turn, intending to bet all non ace, non board pairing rivers as a bluff. What’s the point of peeling the flop if you are going to check back this card?

That said, I don’t super hate a turn check, but with the intention of folding most rivers we don’t hit.

What hero actually did was bet turn and then check back a blank river, which i really hate.
You are peeling because you might have the best hand, could spike a K or Q on the turn, Could pick up a straight or flush draw etc.

If you think you can push the BB off a big Ace then do that.
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03-08-2023 , 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
I concur that range is super tight here but weighted more toward good aces when he checks turn. However, nit should use his image to his advantage here and bet turn, intending to bet all non ace, non board pairing rivers as a bluff. What’s the point of peeling the flop if you are going to check back this card?

That said, I don’t super hate a turn check, but with the intention of folding most rivers we don’t hit.

What hero actually did was bet turn and then check back a blank river, which i really hate.
You're just suggesting that hero should overbluff. Maybe that's a profitable exploit, I can't really say. What I can say is that, not knowing villain, I don't normally expect a LAG to just check/fold here a ton -- I'm expecting this to frequently be a defensive check with some showdown value because the LAG's default mode is going to be to continue to barrel all his hopeless hands and all his strong hands.
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03-08-2023 , 08:53 PM
i dont think a better hand is folding to this turn bet ever. bb wants hero to bluff. so obv bb isnt folding

just check

better question is what to do when it goes check/check and bb bets a brick river. i dont know what the right answer is there. i can see arguments for all 3 options, call, fold or rase.
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03-08-2023 , 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maka2184
I'd bet/call turn.

Value bet/call blank river in attempt to induce vs LAG.
ive seen lines like this is HU LOL LHE matches. basically b/3b/cap b/3b/cap river with king high and win
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03-08-2023 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
I concur that range is super tight here but weighted more toward good aces when he checks turn. However, nit should use his image to his advantage here and bet turn, intending to bet all non ace, non board pairing rivers as a bluff. What’s the point of peeling the flop if you are going to check back this card?

That said, I don’t super hate a turn check, but with the intention of folding most rivers we don’t hit.

What hero actually did was bet turn and then check back a blank river, which i really hate.
yeah if you're going to bluff you have to bluff both streets
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03-08-2023 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1
i dont think a better hand is folding to this turn bet ever. bb wants hero to bluff. so obv bb isnt folding

just check

better question is what to do when it goes check/check and bb bets a brick river. i dont know what the right answer is there. i can see arguments for all 3 options, call, fold or rase.
Raising would be very bad. Our hand is too good to bluff raise. The equity between calling and folding is very close. Our hand is a bluffcatcher. Given that villain is described as a bad LAG, I'd call.
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03-09-2023 , 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardinthepaint
You're just suggesting that hero should overbluff. Maybe that's a profitable exploit, I can't really say. What I can say is that, not knowing villain, I don't normally expect a LAG to just check/fold here a ton -- I'm expecting this to frequently be a defensive check with some showdown value because the LAG's default mode is going to be to continue to barrel all his hopeless hands and all his strong hands.
Overbluff? You called the flop with king high and hit this card in the turn, what else are you bluffing? This is pretty much the highest equity bluff card that you catch aside from Th
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03-09-2023 , 01:21 AM
I think I would check here in game. I don’t mind betting twice, but it would be leveraging hero’s image as a nit. For me I would probably get called by ace high so no point.
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03-09-2023 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
Overbluff? You called the flop with king high and hit this card in the turn, what else are you bluffing?
We aren't calling the flop as a float to then turn our hand into a bluff on the turn. We called the flop because it our hand has enough equity to call a bet, but is neither strong enough to raise nor weak enough to slot in as a bluff. As to what else we are bluffing, we have all kinds of hands weaker than KQ hi that we can bet the turn with as a bluff. If you don't have hands worse than KQhh here, you're not peeling the flop wide enough. For example, we have all kinds of weaker flush draws we can bet, and we don't want to bet all our flush draws otherwise our checkback range is screwed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
This is pretty much the highest equity bluff card that you catch aside from Th
The 9h certainly improved our equity. But it does not follow that our hand now should be a bluff. It kind of feels like you are thinking only about how to play this hand, rather than how to play your range. If you just focus on your hand without regard for your range, it makes a lot of sense to say, "this is the best turn card I could hope for except for a K or Q, so if I'm not bluffing with this hand now, then when am I bluffing with it?" But that ignores that we might not ever need/want to bluff with this hand.
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03-09-2023 , 06:31 PM
I just think King high is never good here and has no showdown value, so its the same as say 67hh. There are plenty of other hands I might check back here due to showdown value, such as AK or AThh.
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03-14-2023 , 06:15 PM
I would bet the turn and give up/check back river on a blank.
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04-08-2023 , 01:27 AM
Unfortunately, I have no idea what it means to have the image of a nit, but if people are folding to us good Ace high in 9 high 3b pots we have to barrel, no? BB is a bad LAG so has no pair
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04-17-2023 , 03:05 PM
I check turn and call most rivers (obviously raising hearts) if this guy is indeed a “bad lag.”
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04-20-2023 , 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
I concur that range is super tight here but weighted more toward good aces when he checks turn. However, nit should use his image to his advantage here and bet turn, intending to bet all non ace, non board pairing rivers as a bluff. What’s the point of peeling the flop if you are going to check back this card?

That said, I don’t super hate a turn check, but with the intention of folding most rivers we don’t hit.

What hero actually did was bet turn and then check back a blank river, which i really hate.
+1

So how much did hero win in hand / session OR get all donated to ninefingershuffle
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