Help on all streets needed

7 handed Bellagio 10, game is pretty tough, one live spot not in this hand though...zero read on young Asian in sb.

Solid reg 2bet from utg+1, folds to sb Who 3!, I call with JJ, +1 calls

Flop 889 two club check, check, +1 bets, sb raises I 3!, +1 folds, sb calls.

Turn (889)4o sb check I bet, he raise, I three he call.

River (8894)9 sb bet (ueudhuvrjudjrjfdufu!) I fold.



Was I just clueless on all streets for the maximum? I know I'm probably getting grief for river fold, but help on all streets dear god please.

Pf i would 4-bet

Flop is ok

Turn 3b is spew. U have showed strength by c/3! the flop and he doesnt care. Call the turn raise.

Capping pre could help make a turn fold easier. As played, I'd make an expert fold on the turn...you beat exactly TT.

This is Bellagio; 4-bet is not a cap.

Preflop is good. I've been liking what happens since I've adopted a don't-4!-from-BB strategy. It builds a pot when you're out of position (not so bad when 3-bettor is the SB, but still an issue), outside of bet-plus-4-raises rooms it gives the opener the chance to narrow their range by 4-betting, and if there are any hands at all in your flat-calling range, flatting with everything makes your hand less readable. (If you're up against utter morons, you may as well put in the fourth bet, but this is not the game OP is describing).

Turn 3! is spew, like others have said. I might actually find a fold on the turn, but calling down the turn raise isn't terrible.

Interesting. I've adopted a not-3betting-HU-OOP strategy, but I haven't done a don't-cap-from-the-BB strategy. Can you expand on this? Does this apply to very multi-way pots as well?

Agree with never 3-betting this turn. I plan to call down from there. When the top card pairs, I start to wonder what I can beat that put in action on the flop.

SB's line screams of a 9, which I can no longer beat. Only hand you can actually beat is TT, of which I don't think there are enough combos to justify a call.

So, I fold the river.

Also, I think that 4! or call pf are both fine. Different for sure, but fine.

because it's not a 4bet cap.

The more other people involved in the pot, the less we really need to worry about narrowing our range or about balance. So if there is at least one caller in the pot as well as the raiser and reraiser, I am inclined to put in a fourth bet in the big blind if my hand warrants it. There are a bunch of read-dependent subtleties about the relative position of the caller and the raiser and 3-bettor, and whether I think I am better off encouraging the caller to see the flop or get out.

But there isn't that much more to it than I've already said. Call-2-or-fold in the big blind is a simpler strategy than having both calling and raising ranges, and allows for a somewhat wider range than a 4!-or-fold strategy; moreover call-or-fold has us putting not as much money out of position than either 4!-or-fold or having both calling and raising ranges. We gain information from whether the opener chooses to call the raise or 4-bet.

Interestingly, just a few days ago I noticed bdaddy advocating a similar strategy, and The Intelligent Poker Player (my copy of which I just got in the mail today) recommends it also.

I understand that. Alan plays in a capped game.

So, Bellagio doesn't have a cap, even in multiway pots?

That's really interesting. I'm going to have to think about that one. I need to pick up a copy of that book.

My guess is this gives you the opportunity to play hands like 88/JTs that you might otherwise fold given that calling two bets cold in the BB would basically announce you have that type of hand that's worth too much to fold but not worth enough to cap.

At Bellagio, as in most Vegas rooms, the cap is 5 bets, not 4 as in most other parts of the country.

Obvious turn fold

be Wary

IPP advocates playing in a way that utilizes information hiding . IF your opponents are not extremely sophisticated and adept at utilizing the information presented to them regardless of your attempts to balance, then acting in a way that hides information at the expense of garnering this pot in this situation isn't necessarily to your greatest advantage.

its way easier to parrot information then it is to truly understand it

it is easier to understand information than to possess the skills to use it correctly all the time under money pressure at game speed.

just because you can change the oil in a VW bug doesn't mean you can build and race a Lamborghini

re consider " The cardplayer continuum" RGP circa 2001

i couldn't agree more

Yabbut I'm not parroting here; I came up with it on my own, and only later got corroboration from bdaddy and IPP.

I like villain's play a lot here especially if our op fsdr ever and/or is overly scared of cards that are essentially blanks. If he is scared of blanks the bet by sb will freeze up 8s,KK,AA and get value from TT,JJ that would otherwise check behind either as planned fsdr or out of fear of high card pairing. No 4b pf perhaps reduces likelihood of AA KK.

It makes sense, though I wonder how much information you actually get against many typical players when the open comes from early position. In other words, there are probably a lot of players out there who are basically going to cap their entire raising range, or almost their entire raising range, from EP, and the range is often pretty narrow to begin with.

So especially against the sort of unobservant tables timmer is talking about, it might be that it's just better to 4-bet normally for value.

Tough game + unknown SB... does villain never semi-bluff a FD like this? I see this kind of play from the trickier players in my game.

You can also check behind the turn, especially against someone you want to showdown against whom you think might be not-so-straightforward. Then, it's possible you induce a river bluff and/or get to see what he has.

interesting discussion of preflop. I didn't play much LHE in 2011 but it seemed that in general, the pool of non-TAG live players has become more adept at using the preflop information asymmetry to its advantage - ie hand reading and using an ABC TAG's raising range to set traps & value bet lighter with one pair hands.
It looks like villain read hero as JJ/TT and reacted accordingly.

But one hand does not convince me- do we expect better postflop outcomes and playability from never 4-betting anything (or specifically this JJ in BB) 3 ways? If he's ABC you can narrow +1's range just as easily by 4!ing, and see how BB reacts also.