Sooo I'm at canterbury playing 8-16 and in lj spot raise 1 limper with q-10o and both blinds and limper call.

Flip comes q-4-5 rainbow. 3 checks I bet. BB raises 1 fold I raise sb folds, bb calls

Turn comes 6. BB checks, I bet bb raises I call.

River comes 10 bb bets I raise bb 3! I call.

What the hell am I doing here? Am I folding the turn? Calling the river? folding Pre? i have no idea anymore haha

We'd need some information about the big blind. Once he c/r twice, he's shown a ton of strength. He's also shown an unusual amount of trickery for a small stakes player. Start thinking about the range of hands he'd play this way. Also on the river, how much of his range did you improve to beat?

Against some players, you played the hand perfectly. Call the river and nice hand. Those players are going to be unusually aggressive. A pretty decent player who is a poor-ish hand reader would be someone you'd play this way. You'd also play this way against someone who would wait for the turn with 3 of a kind but fastplay 2 pair. On the river, I'd be a little concerned that I didn't improve -- however, this could be because you posted the result that you got 3 bet.

Help make this thread more than a bad beat story. Talk about your decision process through the hand, your read on the BB, and give some depth on the hand.

fold pre.

agreed.
Well BB is a good player sort of a fit or fold player seen him do some weird stuff though.

But with him coming out of the big blind i'm thinking he has q-4s or something of that nature. Is it also crazy to think he could have 56s here?

Our OP didn't mention the position or hand range of our limper. Without some very special info, folding preflop would be somewhere between lolhorrible and just bad. When someone with a weak-ish wide range limps, we don't fold a one gap facecard hand.

the pf limp was utg+1 ( and was a terrible player hence the raise to iso)

Does our horrible player raise some hands, or just limp all of them? The more hands he raises, the happier our hand is. Do you see where I'm leading you? I want you to think about what possible hands he has and not just "he's bad a poker".

he just open limps usually out of position with alot of weak hands 56o and such. I have seen him raise Q8o from middle position though. But, I see what you mean and appreciate the advice.

What DougL said.

After the turn checkraise I am not in the least in love with my hand and would want to fold the river unimproved. Well, we improved, so we're not folding; but the river raise is spewage.

At the showdown I'm expecting to see a hand like 44 or 55. Maybe even QQ if the villain is super-passive. (Of course, if they're super-passive, we should take their turn checkraise even more seriously.)

I dont much like the pf raise and think the flop 3 bet is also spewy. Tempted to just throw it away there on the flop.

As played, calling the turn check-raise is horrible. You have over-represented your hand preflop and on the flop, and he is still check-raising you on a big street. Barring some unusual read or history here, you are almost certainly behind and drawing to 0-3 outs, maybe 5 if you're very lucky.

- Overlimping > raising > folding preflop.
- Without any additional info, I think folding is the worst of your options.
- If you were in the CO or BTN, then I'd definitely raise one limper, even if I knew both blinds would come along, but the lowjack is just too far off the BTN.
- If you were in the CO and you knew BTN was going to call a raise a large percentage of the time, then I think overlimping also becomes closer and probably correct.
- As played, I don't think your hand improves enough on the river against what appears to be a very strong range to bet again. If you can make an expert b/f on the river, then betting is fine. Also, against most live players, you should b/f the turn. Way too many bets got put into the pot in this hand, but it looks like you know that already.

so your telling me over limping is the play here? Seems really weak to me.. (but then again, I'm totally convinced i'm the spewyest player of all time at this point in time)

It's OK to play so-called passively in the right spots. You don't always need to be the most aggressive or the one always in the betting lead. Just because a play seems "weak" doesn't mean that it's necessarily the wrong play.

Try this hand, which should be a pretty standard example:

One tight-passive limper and you raise AK somewhere in position. It's heads-up and the flop is A43r.

Limper checks, you bet, he raises, you 3!, he caps.

Turn A
He bets, you ?

This is bad poker, imo. We have a villain marked with a worse than average hand. He c/r the flop, so what does he have? Is his range strong enough that we can just b/f top pair? If the villain only has top pair, our kicker is better than his range (he'd have raised some chunk of Q's better than ours).

You and Pid Koker are going to have to explain why you don't like the preflop raise. I don't think we have enough information to believe that overlimping is a better play than raising. If I have a chance to buy the button, it is a fine investment.

In the games I usually play (10/20 in AC), a typical limper has a range that QTo is not a favorite against. I would still usually play it in position, but I certainly don't love my hand, and unless the blinds and button are very tight then I am unlikely to get them out or ever win unimproved.

I probably wouldn't throw the hand away to the check-raise on the flop, but as I said I am tempted, as I think we are most likely behind. The only good thing about the 3 bet is that it brought further action from villain on the turn, which should allow us to fold and save half a bet vs. just calling down.

DougL, you seem like you know what you are talking about in general, but do you actually play in live holdem games at these stakes? I play 10/20 for a living in AC and have played a lot of 8/16 in Vegas and California. Raises in multiway pots generally really mean a hand in these games, and turn checkraises mean a BIG hand. I havent played in MN, but I have to assume the games are similar. This would not necessarily be the advice I would give if the hand were at bigger stakes or on the internet.

[QUOTE] Based on the info provided by our OP, I think QTo is a decent favorite against the limper. I don't play in his games, so I don't know -- I just took the info he gave. We don't know about the players behind. If they were all loose, I'd prefer an overlimp with QTo and a raise with QTs.

I haven't played 8/16 in a long time. My only live poker these days are in quite lively/creative 30/60 and 50/100 games (read over the top crazy). I also played a bit in the old Mirage 10/20 as described in HPFAP, so I understand nailed down "always have it" opponents. I asked the OP about his opponent, and he made some statements that said that this guy wasn't tight or passive.

Calling the flop 3 bet and c/r the turn is a massively strong line from an aware villain. He either improved or was going for extra by waiting, assuming he's sane. All that matters are reads and ranges. Sitting here at our computers, all we can do is ask the OP what he thinks of the villain. I assume he had a set of 4's or 5's and accidentally played it like an expert.

Try this hand, which should be a pretty standard example:

One tight-passive limper and you raise AK somewhere in position. It's heads-up and the flop is A43r.

Limper checks, you bet, he raises, you 3!, he caps.

Turn A
He bets, you ?[/QUOTE]

my plan here would be to raise/ call down? is that wrong or am I considering a fold here unimproved? I just really can't see myself doing that.. I mean it could be combos of a4 a3 33 44 but thats all thats beating me here? i don't know. I'm not very good haha

I guess I'm assuming the blinds are fairly loose pf as they both called and OP didn't seem suprised. I still prefer here to not have initiative on the flop and be able to use the information I will get by being in position.

He did say villain is "a good player sort of a fit or fold player seen him do some weird stuff though". Apart from the "weird stuff" I am guessing BB will have at least a pair of queens, and his kicker range is unlikely to be much worse than our kicker. If he is not very loose than his range is likely above ours. There are not a lot of likely draws present on the flop. If not for the "weird stuff" comment I would say for sure ditch on the flop. Depending on what weird stuff he does I may call but I still don't like my hand much and may call down from there or fold on the turn.

*g*

Absent reads, just call down after getting raised on the flop.

As played, fold the turn.

Depending on what this guy is calling his blind with I'm counting 27 combos Q4 Q5 Q6 45 of the most likely hands we just pulled ahead of on the river (I'd play these the same as V).

We also pulled ahead of discounted 12 combos AA,KK and 8 combos AQ. If we reduce these combos drastically to say 25% possibility that still adds 5 combos, for a total of 32 combos that we pulled ahead of on the river and I'm assuming calls the raise.

We lose to 7 combos of sets and 16 combos the very unlikely discounted 23.

With the straight possibility out there our raise might even freeze sets.

I think you have to raise this river and, of course, it sucks to get 3b. If the guy is a good hand reader your raise says that you have nothing but QT, but like Doug pointed out that you have to be sure this guy is a good enough hand reader (but not too good) to r/f. When he 3b I think "well, that is a bitch" and sigh/hate life/begrudge my bad luck/bad dealer and call.

This is reasonable enough to think of his range as a flopped two-pair, or some sort of pair+combo backdoor (56, 46, etc) but two c/r's on two streets is really aggro.

I don't like the river raise. Just a calldown here is fine. All the sets scare me and it's Canterbury, he could have the 78 here , and we can't fold to a 3! because we've got toppsies. Just call the river for one bet.

Turn fold to C/R is pretty safe actually. Most villains (especially the fit/fold type) at CP here will C/R the flop, but not the turn with a mediocre hand that didn't improve.

Only way he's running this line is that he improved (two pair), he's got a SET already, or he turned the nuts.
Bottom line is: THIS IS NEVER A BLUFF!

Safe fold on the turn.
If you call the turn, just call that river.

no thanks, doug wins thread.

pre is fine with a good read on the limper, that said, good read should be all you need to know to know you are beat probably on the flop and definitely on the turn. Absent a read I like a limp pre, followed by a raise if he bets into you on the flop or calldown after a checkraise. Q10 is just not that strong here against this much aggression.

The preflop raise is kinda light. You're 3 off the button with a weak unsuited broadway. Sometimes you get away with it, but that's partly luck that the guys behind you all fold.

My standard line in the 8/16 facing this kind of aggression is to just call down from the flop c/r. Your top pair is behind many Qx hands and you can use your position to make sure a bet goes in on the turn if he is in fact semibluffing a draw.

Just call the river, and fold if you hadn't improved. I don't like the preflop raise, your position is not good enough.