8/16 half kill.

Good game but I have the worst seat, all the terrible players are on my left and the tighter players on my right.

Folds to tight, semi-passive guy who raises. Fold, Fold, Tight player cold calls and next up is the button who has posted in. He is laggier than the rest of us and an experienced player.

I'm in the SB with AsKs and 3-bet. BB folds and everyone else calls.

Flop comes Td3d3s. I bet to clear out random cards not expecting any small pairs to fold and will call a raise. Initial raiser folds, first cold caller raises and now the button post 3-bets. With the two best overs and two good back door draws I'm never folding so I call and so does the raiser. I'm certain the guy in the middle has something like JT at best and that the button has a wide range including flush draws.

Turn is Ts giving me a flush draw but double pairing the board. Check, check and button still bets. Can I continue?

Getting about 10 to 1 on the flop is actually Fold this not closing the action. I’d also have checked the flop

Never?

Drawing to a inside QJ isn't exactly what I'd call a "good" backdoor draw. You're drawing to a gutshot.

How many outs do you think you have and what odds do you think you're getting?

You can't post on the button at CP...
Unless there's a small blind behind the button and 3 big blinds.

You're completely right that I misremembered. He cold called, not posted.

I was pretty confident in my read on both players and had some history with both. I feel like I have at least 5 outs worth of equity and will get called on both streets by at least one of them. At the time I didn't think the button had a 3 because I thought he'd try to trap us for two bigger bets. I think he has a flush draw or a weak ten.

When I say never, I mean against these two guys. Of course you can fold if the guy raising always has it. Both of my back door draws are to something resembling the nuts in addition to good top pair cards. I'm fine with continuing when people are aggressive.

Flop is close but I lean towards just folding.

Turn is probably a fold as well. Both of your opponents should have plenty of Tx in their ranges (their flop raises in aggregate mean you're almost always up against a T somewhere) and you aren't closing the action.

This reminds me of this thread:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-hold-1696422/

Basically, you're playing against particular opponents with whom you have a particular history and particular reads. In that thread, it came down to, "Well, I know this guy. I'm playing every hand against him that I can."

It didn't make for a particularly interesting or useful hand to analyze. Here, you're already starting off with, "Well, I'm facing two bets with no pair, but I'm never folding against these guys."

You've got a "tight cold-caller" preflop who raised your flop bet and now you're looking at a 3-bet. You're claiming that the 3-bettor doesn't have a 3, not because it's a 3 and there aren't many 3s in this range but because you think he would trap with that hand. You put one of your opponents on a Tx broadway hand (you're "certain" of that), but you think you're drawing well to runner-runner QJ (he's got some blockers) and your overcard outs are pretty good (somehow, you discount other reasonable Tx hands like KT and AT).

You may be right to continue. You may be wrong. But it's going to be really hard to analyze meaningfully if you're making plays against specific opponents. You will *always* be able to massage your assumptions about specific players to convince yourself that you're playing it right.

Here's what I see in this hand.

* You're out of position.
* The board is paired.
* Your backdoor straight draw is inside-inside (always drawing to a gutshot if you hit your first card) and your outs are likely blocked. Also, if you hit your first card, you're not likely getting odds to even draw to the gutshot.
* Your backdoor flush draw should be devalued because of the paired board.
* Aggressive player in the pot.
* You have no pair.
* You're facing two bets.
* Your odds are something like 9.5:1.

I give you 5 outs, if I'm generous, but probably closer to 4. So it's at least close from a straight odds perspective. But because of all the negative indicators for your ability to maximize the value of your hand, I think this is a fold. The fact you're facing two bets and a good chunk of those outs are backdoor draws means you should be decreasing your implied odds a bit more than usual. Also, the aggressive player means that you're probably *not* getting a free card on the turn, so you are paying full price to chase those backdoor draws.

It's just a bad spot to be in.

Fair enough but I asked the question because I'm only in this spot due to having reads. Against unknowns I would most likely just check and fold to the two bets. I'm not trying to massage it to make my call right I'm just telling you what I was thinking at the time.

So... you bet the flop to "clear out random cards" against these particular opponents, but you also believe you have enough equity when two of those three opponents announce that they're interested in their hands to continue onward facing a 3-bet?

And against three unknowns, you would 3-bet/check AK intending to fold for two bets with "the two best overs and two good backdoor draws"?

You might want to go through the exercise of setting up some ranges and looking at the equities. I don't know what you're doing to get two such drastically different lines based on these specific opponents.

This is the lost in the desert scenario:

You're lost in the desert with no food and no water. What do you do?

At this point, it doesn't matter a whole lot what you do because you're in a crappy situation and the chances survival is small. So just do whatever seems right and hope for the best.

The real question of this scenario is how you ended up in that situation in the first place. If you can avoid being lost in the desert, you won't need to deal with that scenario.

----

Your reads took you here. Somehow, you convinced yourself that this was a solid bet/call-3 because of reads. At the moment of the flop 3-bet, what did your reads tell you? Create a hand range from that moment, and then just trust the numbers for the turn.

You think the initial raiser has at best JT. What's his coldcalling range? What part of that range that is less than JT would raise?

You think the 3-bettor does not have a 3 but has "a wide range" of hands. What does that mean? Is he raising naked aces? Pocket pairs? Overcard combos? Do you think he 3-bets a Tx?

I think you'll find that once you actually do this exercise, you're probably putting your opponents on such narrow ranges that you should know exactly where you stand and what you should do.

DoT, you might find the following helpful. Let's put a T in the button's hand. What price do you need to continue?

Now that you have that, add hands to the button's range until he's your equity is about what you need to call getting 19:2. What are the last few hands you add so that the price is right? Are those hands he can typically have?

Now give the flop raiser (co?) a T. Add hands to his range until you're having the right equity to call. What are the last hand you add there? Are those hands he can typically have?

You can keep going with this along the lines of "now assume co is going to 4bet his T. What price are you getting and what else do you have to add to ranges" etc.

In this way, I think you can come to the conclusion that you can sometimes fold to these guys.

If you don't fold the best hand sometimes, you're doing it wrong.

grunch

I check the flop. You have the likely flop bettor on your left and will most likely be able to call one bet closing the action, very cheaply seeing a turn card. If the flop bettor gets raised you can easily throw away your hand.

As played, the turn is a difficult spot but I would probably fold. Closing the action I would probably call.