8/16. The game is playing loose passive pre and post.

UTG...very angry looking older asian lady. She is playing almost every hand. She has raised pre a couple times but hasn't shown. She chases and pays off loosely. I do not know her Donk range.

The other players involved are loose passive regs.

UTG limps, I am next and raise JcTc, the button and bloth blinds as well as UTG call.

Ts6d8d... The blinds check and UTG donks...should I raise now or wait for a safe turn?

I'd raise the flop.

There are no safe turns.

+1

yeah get your value now while you are ahead and you are the first guy talking right after a bet, time to face the crowd with a raise.

Also donker has a ten or pair+draw.

This...

Easy raise on flop.

I get it tho now. You're not really crushing or even ahead of this range, but in a big pot your hand does capture a lot of equity with folds so I'd still raise the flop.

Yeah I was thinking this is a very weird spot because I don't feel I'm likely even ahead here. There are a few villains where I would even fold, but they are rare. Most you are behind their range, but I guess you still have to raise. I don't really like the raise preflop.

This is an interesting spot because you have a hand that you don't open UTG+1 that you isolated the UTG limper in a spot where you're not going to actually isolate her due to a loose table. Things preflop worked out pretty well, given the situation. Now you have a bloated pot 4 ways, have toppest pair, and are still pretty lost. 9 bets in the middle, guess you go to war and try to buy the button?

Let's say things go great and you get heads up. Can you get 2 streets of value versus her calling range? The "chases and pays off loosely" makes yes seem right. The "do not know her Donk range" makes .

What do you want to accomplish by delaying?

Doesn't seem like a slam dunk raise then. We don't have a ton of equity, especially since we don't really beat a T besides T7/T9. I'd call, see the action behind me, see the turn card, raise sometimes, but probably call again.

I also don't think you capture a ton of equity by raising. There's only a real small subset of hands that will 1) have a decent amount of equity against you and 2) fold to a raise on the flop.

Most likely, you just get a bunch of callers and you're in the same not huge equity advantage spot but terrible RIO spot or they fold and your equity whether you called or raised remained virtually the same because the only people who folded had not equity anyways and probably wouldn't have called.

I always raise this from this position unless the game is particularly agro then I may fold. If it goes off MW that's fine since My hand plays well. If I do eliminate opponents that's fine as well. I'm surprised a couple of you don't raise here. I take it you prefer overlimpin?

I felt the donker was loose enough to have any T and perhaps worse. In the actual hand I did raise the flop and of course everybody called. This is what prompted me to consider waiting until the turn to better protect my hand. Waiting until the turn also gave me the opportunity to abort the raise plan given the high number of bad cards that could come.

I do agree that my hand is low in the value range and that my non understanding of her donking range complicates things. It probably is best to just call the flop and reevaluate the turn.

If I had AT and let's say the pot were bigger, would this be a better example of a hand we should wait for the turn to raise. Let's say I got a couple calls behind me and the button 3 bet pre and all called and the UTG donked into me.

Guys. We have jack ten suited in an 8/16 game. All discussion of preflop is horse pucky.

"Any ten" pretty much destroys you so long as T5o isnt in there.

how loose will people call a flop raise?

i dont think you have a value raise vs all opponents combined (i might be wrong, havent done the EV calc). you might have a protection raise depending on the players.

There are people who fold JTs here pre flop?

IME they usually show it to their neighbors to prove how good they play.

I don't think anyone specifically said they would fold it. I would have overlimped.

Limping here seems terrible. Why don't we just tell everybody what we have?

We have JT soooooted! Raise it up, we don't give a **** what happens after that

Maybe raising is better, I don't really have an argument one way or another about that, but limping certainly wouldn't tell everyone what I have; there are a good number of hands I would limp with there, probably more than the hands I would raise. If you limp anything at all, ever, I certainly think this is the perfect candidate.

You're a nit who just over limped UTG. You're utg+1 so your hand is strong enough to play but not strong enough to raise. It's only something that plays well multiway. You have 22-66, KTs, two suited connectors between Q-7 that are at most one gap apart, and A2s-A5s.

How far am I actually of from your range here Rob?

You're not far off; but that seems to be a very wide range to me. I had figured the alternative would be to have an even narrower range there, but I guess you are implying you would never limp there? Do you ever limp at all? Really that is pretty close to describing my limping range even after several limpers also.

I'll limp that range almost never. You've got a range that plays well multiway. Start juicing a pot, leave some mystery to your hand, gain some positional advantage, be able to surprise someone when I can jam the crap out of a TT2 flop

It may seem like a wide but it still tells a lot. Means my ace is the nuts. Means my KT is the nuts on a K high flop. Makes it a ton easier to value town you on uncoordinated boards and let's me play tighter on boards that smash that range. Also lets me be able to fold in more marginal spots when you do raise, and let's me raise thinner behind you after your limp

Basically a whole lot of little bad things can happen if you limp, and a whole lot of little good can happen if you raise

Note: I haven't said anything about what my range is here, I just guessed earlier at yours

While it may seem little, and may not matter at all at those stakes, to win at higher limits you never want to give a guy like me that much information in the span of 3 seconds

Yeah all that stuff does make sense, but I'm pretty sure no one in my games are noticing those things.

Also still wondering if there is anything you would limp in that spot. If it is an even narrower range, aren't you really telling people what you have?

Utg+1? Probably nothing, and If I did it would be telling you little because I would be flipping a coin and limping or raising the exact same hand at different times or based on very specific table conditions

To be honest anyone I saw over limp here in a 20+ game I would label as bad until proven otherwise

OK. I also would sometimes raise most of the hands in that range you gave at certain times as well. But there are a few that it would seem wrong to ever raise there, but giving up too much value to fold (eg 22).