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can i fold?

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01-31-2010 , 10:49 PM

tiltequity

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 351

Live 15, 7 handed. Villain is taggy and competent.

Hero opens AcQs UTG, Villain 3bets, I call HU OOP.

Flop ( 7 SB ) 7 6 2 all clubs. I C/R, Villain 3 bets, I call.

Turn ( 7 BB ) As. I donk, Villain raises, I call.

River ( 11 BB ) Ts. I check, Villain bets.

Comments on all streets welcome...

The flop C/R is debatable but I get folds out of AK no club enough on the turn, and have the nut flush draw (with AcKs a c/c may actually be better)

The turn bet is to get 2 streets of value against KK-TT. C/R there may get 0 or 3 bets.

On the river, I really beat nothing except out-of-line spews and other bluffs. Is it ok to fold getting 11 : 1 ?

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02-01-2010 , 01:34 AM

justj

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 149

i would call on this line....is that a mistake/??

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02-01-2010 , 03:36 AM

brick

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,889

thinking outloud...
I'm trying to figure out what the flop CR does. I guess it could be a "value bluff". You get vaue from random no pair hand with big clubs. You bluff some hands like 55, 44, 33 and AK but those need to be discounted a bit. So the raise is mostly for value. But it does add the chance of getting owned on the flop/turn when he has a real hand.

I like turn bet to get avoid letting him check behind.

On the river you checked, which looks kinda weird weak, so I think you better call.

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02-01-2010 , 03:58 AM

vankuver

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,175

as played c/r the turn

since you gave action on the flop he shouldn't be worried (assuming he's somewhat competent) about the ace hitting your range

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02-01-2010 , 10:12 AM

LukeSLTS

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,739

I would c/r the turn. It is unlikely he would let the turn check through and even if he does there is little danger in a free card since you have the best draw.

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02-01-2010 , 11:09 AM

BubbleMint

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,922

Depending on where his range is for the pf 3!, I dont see any value oop with the c/r, the only hand I can think we get immediate value from is AJ.

As played I would have c/r the turn or bet it out after c/r the flop.

On the turn he is still really liking his hand, AxKc ? we are behind, we beat or are freerolling other AX pf 3! combos from a competent player. Depending on where he 3! from, 77/66 is a possibility.

As played come the river, I c/c, I dont want to be pwnd and am not confident I am ahead.

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02-01-2010 , 02:42 PM

Nchabazam

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,938

Why'd you c/r the flop?

edit: and given that your hand in no way looks like A high on the turn, why wouldn't you c/r?

and where did he 3bet from?

don't fold

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02-01-2010 , 03:12 PM

wizard

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,548

Quote:

On the river you checked, which looks kinda weird weak, so I think you better call.

How can the hero look weak by checking here? He has gotten banged on every street so far. It seems spewy to let it happen again.

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02-01-2010 , 03:17 PM

wizard

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,548

I have to call but I'm betting he 3's you btf w/middle pps and flopped a set. NH but...........

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02-01-2010 , 11:03 PM

#10

tiltequity

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 351

PF3 came from early MP.

Flop C/R: folding equity against AK no club and possibly small PP no club; maximize value and concealed hand strength when making the nuts 35% of time.

Turn: another reason to bet is prevent other pairs with a club taking a free card. KK-JJ no club may also fold to a turn C/R.

For those advocating turn C/R, what are we doing if we are 3!ed, call down?

Against a reasonable player and there not being a single hand we beat based on prior action, is it really that bad to fold here (I called and won but just thinking of more complete ranges).

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02-02-2010 , 12:16 AM

#11

brick

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,889

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard

How can the hero look weak by checking here? He has gotten banged on every street so far. It seems spewy to let it happen again.

I think I missed villians raise on the turn. Please disregard.

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02-02-2010 , 10:12 AM

#12

LukeSLTS

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,739

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiltequity

For those advocating turn C/R, what are we doing if we are 3!ed, call down?

Against a reasonable player and there not being a single hand we beat based on prior action, is it really that bad to fold here.

I definitely call down. Chops against AQ, win against AJ, and curiosity are reasons I want to call on the river. I think it is just as difficult to figure out hands the villain can have that beat you. Would a TAG player really 3bet AK on this flop? AA, 66, 77 and flopped flushes are all good candidates but of those hands a true TAG would probably only 3bet an UTG raise with AA and sometimes suited broadways. There is too much doubt for me to find a fold.

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02-02-2010 , 02:58 PM

#13

SetofJacks

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeSLTS

I agree. Based on this action, either his range is super wide preflop or super wide postflop.
Either he overplayed pre or overplayed post, call down and see which it is.

AA is the only hand I can see beating hero here and there's only 1 combo of that.

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02-02-2010 , 07:11 PM

#14

graha0011

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,400

I think I prefer c/c flop and c/r turn (I would also c/r turn with your flop line); I wouldn't fold this.

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