Hi guys, I have a question about bankroll management. When I start playing again, I will be using the 500 BB rule. If I am going to play 3-6, I will need $3,000.00 to play, ect... My question is, if/when I am losing how many BB's will will it take for me to drop down in limits? At 3-6 100 BB's is $600, so would I drop down at $2,400.00? Or is 150 a better number? Please help me out here guys, thanks.

if you wanted to drop down to 2-4 and wanted to maintain your 500 BB rule, then i wouldn't drop down until I had $2000.

that's if you want to have 500 BB minimum to play.

ok thanks, but I thought it would be wise to drop down sooner than that. But I do understand where you are coming from.

I would say it depends on whether you are playing live or online, if online are you playing full ring or 6max. There is typically more variance in online play, and more varaince in shorthanded play.

I think his name is Roy West (the older limit guy from CardPlayer) who said that he never had a downswing of more than 200BB playing live limit poker (playing professionally for several decades). So I would say it is time to drop down if you lose 200BB. Online that is probably a more common occurance for winning players.

All depends on your win-rate eh? Maybe you should just start at 2/4 and wait until you're a little over-rolled to move up? I'm assuming you're talking about playing online correct? at FR, I don't think you'd need a BR that large if you're even a modest winner at 3/6 if you're playing FR. 500BB is about right for 6-max I think.

What would your basis for using "the 500 BB rule" be?

Doug

I know you're not asking about this, but--for a winning player--500BB is wayyyy too much for live play. It's tough enough to beat the rake at small stakes, don't handicap yourself from moving up by setting absurd bankroll requirements. Depending on how serious you are about the bankroll (will you quit for good if you lose it, or can you reach back into your pocket to at least play recreationally) I'd keep a 200-300BB bankroll*

Personally, with $3000, I'd be playing 6-12 or thereabouts.

As played, don't move down until you're at 2,000, which is 500BB for 2/4.

*Following my own advice, it's conceivable I'd go busto, since my largest live downswing is more than 250BB, but it would take the perfect storm of just starting out, not being able/willing to move down, playing pretty crappy, and almost obscene negative variance.

600bbs at 3/6, for a relatively high variance style of play in fr games is super safe has a nice feature that when u lose 200 bb u still have 600 bbs for 2/4.

hypothetical situation: you start 3/6 with 3000$.
you're up 150BB at 3/6 (BR=3900$) and you go down -320BB (BR=2000$). You're on a losing streak and you know that to break even you'll need to win 400BB (250BB at 2/4 and 150 at 3/6). Well I can not play properly in this situation that occured to me at level 10/20.
My rules were : play with 300BB. I moved up from BR=250$ to 6K+ $ and My first major downswing at 10/20 got me tilting and steaming even at 5/10...
When I moved down to 5/10 and 3/6 I was still steaming so I stopped and cashed out a lot, and now I play 2/4 with BR= 950BB ! I don't feel like moving up, although I believe I can win at 5/10 easily.
My point is, know yourself, and don't go by any rules of 500BB, 300BB, 1000BB etc. You play for fun right ? You don't play to pay your rent, so sound BR management is BS. Just know yourself and never let the pleasure go away ! If you're too scared when moving up or if you can't stand it when moving down (feeling like you're climbing every single session to try to get back to where you once were), it means you do not enjoy playing anymore. Just find the pleasure back, and for this you're on your own.

how can u get pleasure in playing levels below ur able to beat and be adequately rolled for. I really dispise playing poker now and only enjoy the money and the speed at which it can be earned and preferably not lost. This is probably the same for people who have been playing online for several years.

Exactly my point, everyone is different. I play for the game itself and the pleasure it gives me; I play a lot of variants at small limits and enjoy it. I don't care about earning money from poker - I'm more into not loosing it - since I realized I won't be good enouh for early retirement or pro poker....

If you post in and don't win your first hand, you need to drop down according to your rule here.....

I'm sorry everyone, I should have made it more clear. I will be playing 2 tables of 6 max online. Thanks for all of the replies so far!

A good practice is to establish how many BB's you will make you're bankroll. In you're case, you made it 500BB's. This being said, a good rule of thumb is that if you are down 30% (-150BB), you drop down until you bring it back up to 500BB's.

Online poker just must be so much harder. I had a 100 big bet down swing at Live 6/12 recently and it required practically a perfect storm for my opponents (constant alcohol intake on my part, repetitive set-turning, and me losing with AA 4 times in 3 hours).

Seriously though, make requirements and stick to them. Moving up should be a big deal; I'll remember my first seating at 15/30 forever, as well as my first shot at 20/40 and my first 45 minutes of 40 yesterday.

Wow freaky - reading this made me remember my first time at each limit, from 1/2 thru 20/40.

2/4 Tropicana LV
1/2 Commerce
3/6 Alladin LV
4/8 The Bike
6/12 Hawiaan Gardens
9/18 Commerce
8/16 Oceans 11
15/30 Hollywood Park
20/40 Commerce

Kinda like remembering first dates with girlfriends.


AB

You should do some reading on Kelley betting (the link is very simple, and there is tons written on the subject) and hard-core stastical BR requirements. You are taking a "rule of thumb" 500BB BR and establishing a 30% point to drop down, why? Here's a set of questions for your quest for good BR management.

What risk of ruin (RoR) can you tolerate? What are your current estimates for EV and STDev? How do those estimates compare with some of the historical posts on this forum from people with big sample sizes? What does "ruin" mean to you? Does it mean that you'll never play poker again or does it mean that you'll skip dinner at the Chateau this week and go to Chilli's? Is Bella ever going to post the results of her survey (another big sample to sanity check your results)?

The method you propose isn't really a 500BB bankroll. It is a 150BB BR with a 350BB cushion. From the viewpoint of cutting your stakes in half at hitting the 30% mark, you have a 150BB roll in the big game with a 700BB roll behind to play a smaller game. Given your stats, what is your risk of moving down?

All the bankroll stuff assumes your RoR based on playing a given limit to your last dollar; it is figuring your random paths at a given set of statistics. If you're willing to move down, your BR requirements change. Do you know why? The blackjack folks had a game that was invariant with limit, thus they had a big incentive to figure out optimal ways to scale bet vs. current BR size. These same ideas apply to a lesser degree in poker; your game scales differently at various levels due to Darwinism at various limits, rake, etc. Also, your estimators for the underlying statisics converge very slowly and are affected by tilt, your changing skill levels, opponents growning databases on your play, etc.

I'm not taking a dig at you, Albedamn, but it seems kind of sad that a serious poker forum would throw out a bunch of rules of thumb in the one area we discuss that has a very firm statistical underpinning. I was very serious when I asked the OP

There is real math here, and building a spread sheet with your stats can be interesting. Play around with assumtions on the range of your win rate, STDev, and your desired RoR. Do some searches on this forum and on BJ forums. If you're playing for a living, keeping a 1000BB reserve may be the only sane thing to do. As a recreational player, I have some doubt that even having a BR is required; having "strict BR requirements" and misunderstanding a simple, well documented concept is a poor plan.

FWIW, my 5% RoR point at .5/1 was about 130 BB. That's nowhere near the BR that you are discussing. Do you understand why that figure is meaningful in this discussion (or why not)?

Doug

One last thing, Mike Caro used to write a lot about how people would kill themselves to protect a small bankroll and they would blow through a big one without a thought. There is a lot of "found money" fallacy floating around in the human pysche. Of all of Caro's stuff, I found this observation the most on the mark.

Doug

Indeed it's more important to protect a large bankroll than a small one, espeically if the small one is replenishable.


500BB makes no sense to me at all. I would only see using 500BB if ALL of the following conditions were true:


1) You played a very high variance style in hhigh variance games.

2) You had no other source of income.

3) You had no way to replenish your roll if you bust.


I could see this if you were a full time player - but if you are playing recreationally, and have other means of income, then you are making a -EV choice by setting your BR requirements so high.


If you play TAG style, and have other means of income, and can replenish your BR if you have a big downswing, then 200 to 300 BB is sufficient.


AB

Thank you so much for the responses guys. DougL, I really appreciate everything you wrote. I realize now that I have a lot to learn. To be honest, I feel a little intimidated. Time to start reading!

"500BB makes no sense to me at all. I would only see using 500BB if ALL of the following conditions were true:


1) You played a very high variance style in hhigh variance games.

2) You had no other source of income.

3) You had no way to replenish your roll if you bust."



If all of the above conditions were true, your BR should really be 1000+BB and 6 months living expenses



"I could see this if you were a full time player - but if you are playing recreationally, and have other means of income, then you are making a -EV choice by setting your BR requirements so high.


If you play TAG style, and have other means of income, and can replenish your BR if you have a big downswing, then 200 to 300 BB is sufficient."

Agreed - and most online players have a smaller roll than this

There's a big gap at Bay101 - 8/16 (rolled for 406BB) to 20/40 (163BB).

I'm trying to figure out how much I'll want before I take a shot, and I think it's at least 250BB before I get money scared buying in, which is another 200+ BB at 8/16, which will take me at least half a year of live play, which is dumb and stupid.

Maybe I'll try the AJ 15 game, but it's twice as far with terrible traffic.

I think 500 to 600BB is sufficient in this scenario, but I do agree about the 6 months living expenses, in a separate account.

AB

Here's a thought from my former coach:

Play the 8/16 - on a day when you have a good rush and you are up $500, take that $500 and buy into the 20/40 game.

1) You'll enter the 20 feeling good/strong/confident.

2) If you go through the $500, you'll still have a break even session.


NOTE: When I do this, and I am down to $250 or so, I will stick a couple hundreds under my rack should I get in a hand that needs the ammo. But generally, if I'm just dwindling down without getting cards, I'll leave at the end of the rack.


ALSO: IMO you are rolled for shots at the 20/40. If you're inthe 20, and you get hit for 20BB, then move back down.


As a side note, IMO Bankroll specifications have much more to do with personal comfort levels, emotions, and your discipline.

If you are comfortable playing with a 100BB bankroll, and it truely does not affect your play, then 100BB is fine (unless playing is your sole source of income). If you are playing as side income, then IMO your should be maximizing your expectation and playing in the game wherein your EV is highest. I think then the minimum BR is 100 to 150BB. But this assumes that:

1) You can replenish

2) You have the discipline to move back down/slow down/leave when you are getting it in the a$$.

AB

Ok, fair enough. My 1000 is probably more geared towards online 6 max than live/ online FR.