I often see players advocating b/3b in various threads. It's a strategy I don't use very often, perhaps because I play in games that are often way more passive than what some of you play in (where some players are reluctant to 3bet TPTK or even an overpair on the flop).

When you go for b/3b in a live game, how often do you actually get raised? For example, when I make the nut flush and I suspect my opponent has a smaller flush, a b/3b line never seems to entice the desired raise often enough to make the move more profitable than just going for the check-raise. Maybe that is a function of my tight, tricky, smart table image which seems to freeze opponents into taking a WA/WB strategy against me.

When someone tries to b/3b you when you have a hand that you wouldn't raise if you knew what your opponent actually had, how often do you fall into the trap and raise? What non-nut hands would you raise with if you knew that an unknown was betting into you with the intention of three-balling a raise (but if you were unsure about his range...that is, you don't know if he plays draws that way)? You can use the sample flops of 9h7h2h, JsTs2c, Ad9h4s, and KcTs8d if you need some actual flops to talk about.

If you lead on the flop into the preflop raiser with a hand that you would like to 3bet if raised, how often are you leading with a hand that doesn't particularly like being raised or with which you don't mind the raise but wouldn't 3bet?

Also, feel free to discuss b/3b in live vs online games.

There are like 5 questions here. Without sorting through them all, I'm going to answer a simplified version of "When do I go for a b/3b instead of a c/r".

My favorite and I think the most profitable opportunity for the b/3b line in the games I play is when my opponents are extremely aggressive and/or the strength of my hand is well hidden. Assuming your play conditions with mostly passive players, I still think this is worth it if you have a well concealed hand.

Here's an example. The other day I was on the BB with T8o. 5 players limped and I checked. One of the limpers was an Asian lady who'd shown a higher level of aggression post-flop then the rest of the table.

Flop came J97 with 2 spades. I bet out and got three callers.

Turn came Qc.

I no longer have the nuts, however the strength of my hand is well hidden and there are a huge number of hands that I still beat that just improved, so I chose to b/3bet. Asian lady obliged by raising my bet, I 3-towned her and trapped the flush draw in the middle for two more bets.

Yeah, I thought about suggesting an official b/3b thread. I get tired of so many hand history posts, so I wanted something a little different.

The math for determining whether or not b/3b is better than a check-raise is trivially easy for a heads-up pot. The hard part is assigning a probability that you will get raised. I suspect that some players who suggest b/3b lines are overly optimistic about their chances of getting raised.

I would say that b/3b works best against players who overplay hands and/or push draws aggressively. Someone who insta-caps the flop with TPTK or an overpair would be a good candidate for a b/3b line. I, on the other hand, have found myself against players who bet top two on the flop then just call my raise and check-call down, fearing a flopped set. (That sound you heard was me bashing my head against the wall.)

This is a good topic, and I'll try to come up with a better answer later, though it's dangerously close to time for me to head down to the beautiful city of Commerce. (Out-of-shape middle-aged white guy with white shirt, green cap, and goatee playing 9-18 if anyone wants to say howdy)

Most players in my typical game are pretty LP, but there are enough LAGs to merit considering b/3b from time to time.

I find that PF and flop, the LAGs can be pretty aggressive (and even the LPs have learned the free-card raise with a flush draw in LP), but many slow down on the big streets, so I probably look to b/3b more often on the flop against a late-position PFR, but there are plenty of other opportunities.

If you're playing in a more passive game you'll probably get to b/3b rarely, but how often are you really going to be able to c/r either? I think the notion behind b/3b (at least for me) is that while you'll only be able to actually put in the 3b 5% of the time, a c/r is probably only going to work 40%, and the times it doesn't work they check behind and I'm really pissed at myself. I'd rather collect one bet 95% and collect 3bets 5% than collect two bets 40% and zero bets 60%. [Obviously I'm pulling numbers out of my behind]

I guess short answer: Bet, hoping to get raised but expecting to just get called.

I think the bet/3bet line is MUCH harder to pull off live, due to the fact live players are generally more passive.

I think the majority of the time I've used it is in blind defense online.

I have also used in Live games, but I think it's much easier to do on the flop, when people will put in raises a bit lighter. As for pulling off a bet/3bet on the turn you generally need have had someone improve to 2 pair or better. Live small stakes players just don't raise the turn with one pair. This is when it good to notice that a player improved with the turn card due to body language. I'm not very good at this, but I'm getting better as I play more live.

I really should have posted this earlier with a suggestion that people think about it when playing live this weekend.

Maybe I'll see you there Deuce. I'm a young(ish) white guy, thin with dirty blonde hair. Generally wearing headphones and a T-shirt and pretending to boop around to the music instead of paying attention. I'm also sporting a goatee.

now that i think about it, i c/r the big streets way more live than online. at the same time, i bet/3bet way more online than live.

when i say i c/r or b/3b, i mean as a premeditated action(i.e. i bet/call the flop and bet/3bet the turn online vs. bet/call the flop and c/r the turn live).

This is exactly what I was thinking James. This thread brings up an interesting point. I don't often go for the bet/3bet live becuase I feel most players don't raise the turn as lightly as they do online. Maybe I should try it occasionally?

Boy did I misunderstand the question/concept. As a premeditated move (get raised flop and plan to b/3b the turn) I think this rarely works live. I think a turn c/r has a much higher chance of success.

I used to b/3b playing 6-max online, but those muscles have atropied.

I come up with one question on this; if they won't raise you, are they aggressive enough to bet when checked to? If I'm going for a c/r, there has to be someone I know is aggressive enough to not let it check through. Recently, that guy seems to be also willing to raise you.

The B/3B also has the benefit of not having a negative when it fails; if you miss a c/r you give a free card, when you miss a b/3b you at least got in a bet. You might have missed a c/r, but it seems like a small loss.

If no one raises your EP bet, then your only decision is about correctly pulling off a c/r. As their raising frequency goes up, the b/3b has to come in to play. OL, I see lots of PF raisers "punishing" the flop donk, so I think the play has a lot of merit. You pretty much get to pick which street, they'll often raise you on the turn as well as flop. In my live game, I now have an 90/60/infinity guy who gives you the option of b/3b or c/r/cap.

I think your question is about what % they need to raise before b/3b is breakeven. 4 players behind you, you're in the SB. To simplify, let's say the button bets 100% if checked to. What % does he need to raise to make b/3b even. Calling guys call 100%, 5 SB in the pot, and we're on the nuts...

If you c/r, you end up with 8 sb in the pot. Your EV for a b/3b is 4 + 8 * chance it works. So, you need a 50% chance of it working to break even. This is the best case for the c/r due to the 100% chance of you getting it off, and the fact that the callers take 2 cold w/o having put one in the pot. You offer them a bigger pot and better odds with the b/3b.

How's that for back of the envelope? This gets more complicated quickly if you try to assign calling % for each player.

Doug

I tend to think people feel like it's an epic disaster to go for a c/r and have it checked through, when it's not. I also think some players are too afraid to go for a check-raise when there is a draw on the board because of excessive fear of a free card, which means that their donk bets often mean "I have top pair and fear the preflop raiser will check behind with AK." Players like that are incredibly readable. When they donk the turn with a two-flush out there, they always always always have a made hand that was improved by the turn card.

One thing that I think I am good at is picking spots to go for a c/r again on the turn after it gets checked through on the flop when I tried to c/r, either because I know a certain player can't stand to see it checked around twice or I have a good idea of his range and know he hit something that he will bet. But I'm just not good at picking spots for b/3b. Or maybe my image is too smart and people are suspicious of my donk bets. The only time this year I can recall having done b/3b live is when I flopped top set in a pot that had been 3bet preflop. (Bad beat story: he turned an ace and I felt like a spewtard for betting into him on the turn when I was almost certain he had aces.)