My table that I had been playing at all night just broke so I get moved to a new table. There's a few regulars in the game, but none involved with this hand. I'm about 1 orbit in when....

Hero raises A K. UTG+1 calls. UTG+2 calls. Folded to button who calls. Both blinds fold.

Flop is 4, 2, K

Hero bets. UTG+1 calls. UTG+2 raises. Button folds. Hero calls with the intention of leading a non-spade turn. Now UTG+1 re-raises. UTG+2 calls. Hero doesn't know what to do now.

Hero calls.

UTG+2 didn't raise again when he had a chance to do it again, so he probably isn't that strong. Maybe he has a flush, but at the very least I doubt he has the nut flush. UTG+1 worries me more. He probably called because he was either timid or he didn't want to chase people out of the pot. But then he raised after another player had already raised on a flop with 3 spades.

Your opponents are unknown, you have top pair with top kicker, nobody will act after you on the flop, and the pot is huge. I think it's worth paying a small bet to see another card and to reevaluate thigns on the turn. Calling probably isn't a big mistake in a pot this large. However, if you actually are ahead (as unlikely as that is), folding is a huge mistake. I hate calling in this spot, but I think I would call here.

If my math is right here your getting 16-to-1.... You must call of coarse with the intention of folding if a spade comes off on 4th. C/C a non spade turn getting 10-to-1. Ugly spot nice pot UTG+1 doesn't seem like he knows what he's doing with the call-reraise. If you know they are really bad I go for a C/R on the turn when no spade falls.


Any thoughts on the C/R turn when no spade falls or is this a call down situation for sure?

Brett

Hero has to call the flop c/r. I am probably showdown bound for 1BB each street providing no spade falls.

If the turn checks through, I lead most rivers.

I dont like a turn c/r. We are playing unknowns, one or both of whom could be spew monkeys. I am getting to showdown providing no more spades fall and it costs me 1BB on each street.

3bet the flop when it gets back to you.

What does UTG+1 look like. If he is over 40 you are probably drawing near dead.

call the flop. check the turn.

Doesn't calling the flop make the hand more difficult to play on the turn? What calling the second time on the flop, would you guess that the flop call/3bet means a made flush most of the time?

Usually live 3/6 games have a bunch of loose-passives that would never bluff in a spot like this. A lot of them almost never bluff period. Even if they have one spade (like the ace of spades), a good number of them won't put in a raise until they actually have the flush. These are the same people that won't raise preflop with AK or somtimes even JJ or QQ because "I don't like to raise with a drawing hand" or "I hate it when players raise preflop and then fold after the flop."

In other words, if the opponents are unknown, they are very likely loose-passive.

I would check the turn and then make a decision based on the action of the other two players. However, I know I wouldn't raise after someone bets the turn.

I understand we've had 1 orbit with these guys, but if we are assuming that these guys are the typical 3/6 players, than can't we realistically put them on KQ/KJ.... Kx, or a flush draw? from what I've seen of non 2+2 3/6 players that are very Loose passive they Love to raise on a flush draw and raise with top pair trying to make a flush draw pay for drawing. Does this make sence to anyone?

I still see a call down as correct but I'm not to worried in this spot unless a spade comes

Brett

call the 3-bet and calldown safe turn and river cards. Reads on UTG+1 would need to be very good (ie total nit or lagtard) to do anything else. I'm betting the river if the turn checks through on a blank.

Sometimes I'm 3-betting this when it gets back to me on the flop before UTG+1 acts though.

On a non-flush board, the call-reraise line is almost always a set, in my experience. On a monotone board, it is usually a flush. It is a betting line that almost always represents great strength.

The typical psychology of the move is that the player was planning on slowplaying, but now decides that there is enough money in there to pounce or enough betting to guarantee action, so he decides to raise it up.

Usually, calling down with a top pair type hand vs a player who has called then reraised on the same betting round is spew. The main exception is a player with a draw who called on the flop to keep people in, but decides to raise now that several people have show interest in staying in.

You sir, have been backraised. Since villain is unknown, calling down any non-spade turn and rivers seems appropriate. Against a villain I've played a few sessions with, this can sometimes be a very easy fold.

James., are we call/checking to fold to a turn bet, or are you still calling a non-spade turn?

This sorta sounds like what UTG+1 did here. So, are you saying to fold or raise flop? I like the raise idea because it will sniff out whoever has a flush. If all just call, non-spade turn and river are big opportunities, right?

That doesn't sound like a passive player. Aggressive players are the ones who raise with flush draws, and they are the ones that tend to protect their hands better. Passive players don't raise much at all. The exception to that tends to be when they have a monster.

I'd expect loose-passive players to be less agressive with 3 spades on the flop. Those players tend to not protect their good hands well enough, and on a flop like this the last thing I'd expect from a timid player is aggression, unless that timid player has the flush.

Even with a flush, I wouldn't be surprised to see a check or a call from a passive player because they'd be afraid of chasing players out of the pot when the board looks so threatening. They're so used to either calling or checking that raising in a spot like this is going to feel uncomfortable for them.

Why do you seem to think a draw is more likely than a made hand? Because you want to believe TPTK is good? The exception I gave isn't likely to happen because the nut flush draw will often fear that someone already has the flush. It is more likely to happen when the flop is two-suited. I also would discount the possibility because UTG+1 is OOP relative to the UTG+2 flop raiser.

Also, raising again caps the betting (unless you are playing in a place with a five-bet cap). All will just call because they have no other option. So, now what? If you bet the turn, you are out of position. If you get called, you might get called by a small flush that fears you have the nut flush. What do you do then? If you had position on the other players, then you can cap it and bet/fold the turn and consider taking your free showdown if just called, but not here.

I lean toward folding, unless I have a good read on my opponents that tells me otherwise. You're getting 17.5:1 to call, but you're usually agreeing to put in two big bets if no spade comes, which is probably something like 5:1 effective odds when no spade comes, meaning you need to do somewhat better than that to compensate for when you have to fold to a spade. This is the sort of hand where I think you have to have a vision of how the hand will play out rather than taking your immediate odds on a street-by-street basis.

Sure, I may be wrong occasionally in folding in this sort of spot, but my experience suggests that at live tables, I am right often enough with these sorts of laydowns for it to be profitable in the long run.

[QUOTE=Steve00007;5220746]That doesn't sound like a passive player. Aggressive players are the ones who raise with flush draws, and they are the ones that tend to protect their hands better. Passive players don't raise much at all. The exception to that tends to be when they have a monster.

I'd expect loose-passive players to be less agressive with 3 spades on the flop. Those players tend to not protect their good hands well enough, and on a flop like this the last thing I'd expect from a timid player is aggression, unless that timid player has the flush.

Even with a flush, I wouldn't be surprised to see a check or a call from a passive player because they'd be afraid of chasing players out of the pot when the board looks so threatening. They're so used to either calling or checking that raising in a spot like this is going to feel uncomfortable for them.[/QUOTE

All players IMO no matter how loose passive have there times when they "RAISE" and are somewhat aggressive, I noticed at my local card room in Phoenix "Casino Arizona" That the "Loose passive" players are most Aggressive when they are either A: On a High 4 flush draw on the flop, or B: Suspect that someone on the flop is on a 4 flush draw and they have top pair good kicker.

My question is.... Does anybody else see this pattern of Aggressivness from the loosest of passive players or is it specific to where I play.

I have noticed other patterns specific to other Casino's that are not at mine.

Brett

[QUOTE=ChipRaider34;5222021] For A, I would say that it is usually when they have either the nut flush draw or additional outs (flush+straight draw, pair+flush draw). Also, they tend to be afraid of being too aggressive with just the ace when someone may already have a flush on a monotone board. However, some loose passives absolutely never ever raise with a draw with the same consistency that certain players never ever raise preflop with AK.

For B, you can expand that to any good hand when they fear a draw. Specifically, they will raise with a set on a flop with a possible flush draw when they would slowplay and wait until the turn to raise if it were a rainbow flop.

Also, C: when they are on tilt.