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A3s on button ... A3s on button ...

02-14-2009 , 05:43 PM
4/8 w .5 kill.

I have A3 on the button. 2 limpers to hi-jack who raises. I've never played with the guy before. He raises a lot. I've only seen him showdown once when he raised pf. He had pocket jacks. I call. I'm thinking if an A comes on the flop, I'll raise his bet since his range includes hands that do not have aces and he's raising a lot. And if I get a flush draw all the better. SB folds, BB calls, limpers call. 5 to the flop.

Flop is A 7 9 rainbow one spade. Checked to hi-jack who bets. I raise. BB calls. 2 folds and hi-jack re-raises. I call. BB calls. My plan is not working out so well. But I still have a back-door nut flush draw and a kicker.

Turn is off-suit 3 giving me two pair. BB checks, Hi-jack checks ??? (wtf), I bet. They both call (double wtf).

River is a Q. Now BB bets out. Hi-jack calls. I call??

Should I have played it differently on any street? May be fold pf?
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02-14-2009 , 05:50 PM
Fold preflop
flop is good
turn is good
call river you win 1/4 of the time or so
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02-14-2009 , 05:57 PM
Garbage kicker.. fold this pf, maybe call A7s+. You're probably beat on the river but this pot is bigger than it should've been so you have to call
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02-14-2009 , 06:05 PM
What reasonable hand beats me on the river? I bet the turn and didn't get raised. It came one bet to me on the river. pfr might have AQ for a rivered 2-pair, but wouldn't he raise the river when action is on him? BB suddenly bets out on river, but he would have shown his colors before the river if he had something good - he would have raised the turn when pfr checks and I bet.

The river was a Q. Should I have raised the river? confusing hand for me.

Easy fold pf with A3s on the button when action comes to me raised, but also an easy raise pf if action comes to me with no raise?
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02-14-2009 , 06:23 PM
HJ's line makes very little sense so we probably have him beaten. BB's cold call on the flop and river donk make AQ far more likely than Q9. You might be a little over 25% here but you're calling even if you were 10% because of the pot size. If BB is a typical loose passive, I'm not really a fan of raising the river. He might even show up with QQ here sometimes. But, if you've seen him pull some aggressive/tricky moves prior to this then I don't mind a raise here.
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02-14-2009 , 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceyPlay
Easy fold pf with A3s on the button when action comes to me raised, but also an easy raise pf if action comes to me with no raise?
If everyone before you has folded and you are on the button here, then yes this is an easy raise. If anyone has called before you, than its not a raise, your kicker will never win against another ace which people at this level limp with any ace all the time. Of course this also depends on how many limpers and how they play post flop, but most of the time you should not raise A3s on the button if someone else has already entered the pot.

As played fold PF, not a good hand to cold call with. Flop and Turn are good, river is interesting as no straights are on the board and I assume no flushes either. If this player is passive enough he may have AQ since he called two on the flop. It's also possible he flopped a set and slowplayed it to death. Did you have any reads on the BB at the time?
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02-14-2009 , 06:51 PM
I think if it's almost a guarantee that either the sb or bb or both will come along then you should be calling PF here assuming the raiser isn't a total nit.

And yes you should really be raising this pf if it comes to you with any number of limpers on the BTN.

As played I think this is fine. I wouldn't be committed to showing this down if I didn't make 2 pair/flush/whatever although I'd probably do so on the river. If he spazzed out with KK/JJ/KQ on this flop it's pretty unlikely he'd just barrel off 3 streets.

On the river the BB could certainly be donking a hand like Q9 or Q7 and we clearly have the HJ beat so just pay his 77 off.
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02-14-2009 , 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceyPlay
I've never played with the guy before. He raises a lot.
Help me out here.
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02-14-2009 , 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leo doc
Help me out here.
He sat down about a half hour before this hand occurred. He's probably raised 5 times in that half hour. One time showing JJ on the river. He may have limped twice in that half hour. To me, unless he's getting a disproportionate share of good cards during this time, he's playing too many hands and raising with most of them. That's why I thought calling his raise with A3s on the btn with the plan of raising him if an A hits the flop was +ev.
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02-15-2009 , 03:17 AM
your relative position sucks. fold pf.
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02-15-2009 , 03:25 AM
kupo is making the most sense. 4/8 1/2 kill @ Hawaiian Gardens tends to be very loose passive wth river traps scoring "glory" points among the locals. Slow played AQ or QQ are distinct probabilities. You gotta call the river 'cause of the size of the pot. The flop action warns you to watch out for river traps by other players when they DON'T fold. Your hand had FLUSH value, not top pair value. There were certainly enough players to choose to play the flop, but you wouldn't be giving up much to fold PF. So I think you played it fine, but you are using 2+2 style to analyze the line of people who don't play that way. Hence your confusion, particularly on the turn. You can't apply OUR standards to the way THEY play.
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02-15-2009 , 02:10 PM
Fold preflop. I wouldn't be coldcalling any suited aces here unless it was going to be a 7 way pot or so. Terrible RIO. I would start 3betting here with ~A9s against a preflop LAG.
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02-16-2009 , 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker
your relative position sucks. fold pf.
I think my relative position is perfect given my action plan. I'm on the button and act right after the pfr. Everyone checks the flop to the pfr who bets and I raise putting 2 bet pressure on the rest of the field - I want to get it heads up because I think there's a reasonable chance pfr doesn't have an ace. Unfortunately my opponents didn't cooperate. The BB called and the pfr re-raised.
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02-16-2009 , 01:55 AM
BB showed Q7 for a rivered 2-pair. I don't know what the heck he was doing in the pot after I raised the flop. pfr flashed an ace. My aces up were good.
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02-16-2009 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiceyPlay
I think my relative position is perfect given my action plan. I'm on the button and act right after the pfr. Everyone checks the flop to the pfr who bets and I raise putting 2 bet pressure on the rest of the field - I want to get it heads up because I think there's a reasonable chance pfr doesn't have an ace. Unfortunately my opponents didn't cooperate. The BB called and the pfr re-raised.
you arent thinking about this the right way.

what sort of profitable hands are you going to flop with A3s and in what position are you when you hit those types of hands?

even if you hit TPNK, do you think you're actually in a profitable position raising and bloating the pot with a raise into a massive field?
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02-16-2009 , 02:34 AM
I don't mind the PF call as long as it is likely at least 1 and preferably both blinds are coming along for the ride. I can think of worse positions to be in than 5 or 6 to the flop with Axs in position.

You flop TPNK, I would call the flop and re-evaluate turn. Safe turn I raise for a free showdown to drive out any funky draws. You hit 2-pair so turn bet (or raise) is easy.

River is read dependent. If I have played with vil and they are the type to never been anything except something close to the stone cold nuts I call, otherwise I am guessing some funky Q9 2-pair here. QQ just doesn't look right, neither does AQ even for a passive, set would have woken up on the turn. Generally raise for value as you appear to be way ahead of hijack who is providing overlay as they look like they are going to call anyway even though they are likely behind with something like KK or QQ.
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02-25-2009 , 09:47 PM
Kit said it best to me at the Borgata this past weekend. Ace rag, suited or not, does not play well in a raised multiway pot. Domination will occur frequently and your kicker is meaningless by itself, so you wanna see the flop cheaply with Axs. Against a very loose raiser maybe, BIG MAYBE, I would go as far as 3 betting A9s if I thought very strongly I could get the limpers to fold.

Someone raising 5 hands in a short time period is not necesarily loose raising. I raised 3 hands in a row once, all 3 premium, last hand AA. One opponent kept raising me postflop, even with 3 of the same suit on the board, with KK till I was all in (I unfortunatly and stupidly only had about 9bb to start the hand at that time) After the hand he said wow you raised 3 hands in a row so I thought you were weak. I would have gotten at least two or 3 more big bets from him of I was not short stacked, but his view of my aggression cost him a couple bets more than he would have lost had he not assumed I was being wild all of a sudden.
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