Standard commerce game, two semi comptent, one kinda meh, but gets thin value in spots, and everyone else is walking around doing something, so table is short.

Hero is in BB with 66. two ep limp, and villain raises from CO.

all four call.

Flop comes 6-q-10 two hearts.

Hero donks, fold, fold, call.

Turn: blank.

hero bets, call.

river: ace.

hero bet, villain raises.

Is it good to 3bet here or just call?

as played, 3 bet all day -- not even close.

why did you donk the flop?

pre is very close to a 3 bet.

If this player can be raising with AK or AJ and pay off your 3b then I would 3b the river. A river 3b would be a slamdunk if this player could have AQ as well, but its unlikely he would have played it that way. I think if he is unlikely to have these hands you are combinatorily in bad shape in regards to your risk/reward for 3b the river.

If he doesn't have these hands in his range you should just call. Realistically if you raise, you will get called by A6 or AT. A6 is greatly discounted since you have 66. He could have Ace/turn blank for two pair but not many combos of those since it would require him to have an Ah to peel the flop.


The deciding factor is how many hands does he have in his range that he will raise this river with and call the 3b that you beat?

Another thing to think about is how would he play KJ on the flop and turn here. If you think he would raise at some point then 3b river becomes a no brainer.

Is villain really going to play Ah x this way and now raise with 1 pair hand? I don't buy that.

The only hands I'm seeing that we beat is AQ and maybe AT but with Ah I think we hear from them earlier and they might be scared to raise anyways. I think it is at least close.

When I was 3betting from the bb, players were folding, so I just wanted to call and have more people join in on the fun.

As for the flop donk, I wanted the limpers to call and villain to raise so I could 3b and charge the people drawing. It obv didn't happen.

I would never 3 pre-flop and I think river is a call. Even if I raised A-10 on river (I wouldn't) I would fold to the river 3, Whig would make the 3 bet really bad.

do the opposite of this and you should be fine (ie you played it well)

3b river.

I three bet this river and call a cap. There are lots of Ax(AQ,AT, A6) two pair combos that raise this river and only one straight(KJ).

16 combos of KJ that I expect to play this same exact way every time. There is 1 non heart AA that could play this way and 2 heart AA that is at least possible.

9 combos of AQ and 9 combos of AT that might play this way and raise on river but Ah combos are likely raising us at some earlier point in the hand and I'm not sure 2 pair is even raising us here 75% of time.

If we are completely discounting hearts (not sure if we should) our raise is going to effectively freeze all better hands so we don't have to worry about getting 4 bet.

It's hard to say without knowing the type of player Villain is or what your table image is...but don't you think most players who take the lead pre-flop will raise a donkbet holding AQ, A10, and sometimes AhXh (I know I would...).

I just don't understand him calling down w/ A10 or AQ...if that's what he had he played it horribly IMO.

Is he the type of player who raises a suited ace in position against 2 limpers - or would he prefer to limp and get a cheap flop? Does he raise his draws in position to get a free river (like flopping an open-ender with KJ)?

Against a complete unknown I just call this river because the only hand I see us beating is AK and that still doesn't seem likely the way he played the hand.

I was thinking when you said this that maybe I might be wrong but then my memory kicked in and I recalled a Canterbury 8/16 hand where an older usually passive regular played AQ just like this against me. I might be biased because of this hand but it does happen.

I'd call the river.

I like the flop donk here, it just didn't work out. I don't think you need to worry about TT, QQ or AA as they probably play the flop or turn differently. KJ is a possibility if you think he wouldn't raise a straight draw on the flop. So then it comes down to what you think he raises with on the river. With no specific reads, I'm going to 3 bet this. I think he has AK or aces up a lot more than KJ here.

completely read dependent, obv never folding, some people I 3 and there are others that they will only raise in this spot with a straight. I lean towards a 3 without a read and probably pay off a 4

Not even necessary to post, you 3 bet all day long and twice on sunday, if he four bets, I might even 5 bets, probably just call, if he happens to roll over kj, so be it, it happens, its a limit game, 9/10 times you are way ahead!

mmm no. If you count combos we're probably slightly ahead of his range, but he 4bets his 16 KJ combos 100% of the time, and folds some of his worst aces to 3bets. It's a pretty easy river call, and 5 betting would be incinerating money.

given the two honor cards OTF and you poor relative position I play the early streets differently.

as played river value 3 bet is warranted.

I agree, and am shocked at all of the replies saying what a slam dunk 3 bet this is.

(1) What exactly is your range for donking flops into 5 people, leading the turn and b/3b the scariest river card? I'm guessing its 66/KJ? If so, players should definitely call your 3 bet with worse hands, and you can certainly call the 4 bet profitably.
(2) The only worse hand that may raise call the river is AQ, and I can't imagine villian not raising that on the flop

Damn, thought there were 3 hearts on flop. Reading the op correctly I 3b always.

Have you seen villain raise draws liberally for free cards?
Have you seen villain raise with hands like K/J or A/10?
What is his donk-calling range on flop? Would he call to river with U/I A/K and then raise the ace?


I know a lot of 8/16 villains who might be less likely to raise their OESD on a two tone flop.

I don't see the slamdunk 3! here either, and I think a lot of your decision on whether to raise or not depends on villains previous tendencies.

To me it's important to know if KJo is in villain's pre-flop raising range.

Let's say we can rule out KJo and TT. Most players are raising TT by the turn at least.

Then hands that beat us are
AA - 6 combos
KJs - 4 combos

We beat
AQ - 9 combos
AT - 9 combos
AK - 12 combos

Against most SS players I'd 3-bet and fold to 4-bet.

JKo adds another 12 hands that beat us. - getting marginal
TT adds another 6 hands that beat us.
Removing AK removes 12 hands we beat.
Adding AJ,A9s etc adds more, etc.

I really have a hard time putting AA in villain's range. Wouldn't he have put in a raise on the flop or the turn?

I also think Hero's image is pretty important in this hand: has Villain seen Hero donk a flush draw on the flop? Has Villain seen hero check raise a top pair type hand? I guess what I'm asking here is whether Villain would ever have reason to believe you're donking the flop with a Q.

You can discount TT because he probably would have pumped that on the turn for the xpert sloplay.

Also, read on Villain is kind of unclear. You say there are two semi competent players, one is meh but can extract value, and a bunch of walkers. Which one of the other three players is Villain? How well has he played short handed?

To all of the combo counters: you should not include hands that will fold to a river 3 bet.

since when do live 8/16 players raise/fold the river (unless they were bluff raising the river)?

Seems far more likely than a semi-competent player raising and calling a 3 bet with A-10or worse.

I asked 3-4 of my friends that play 8-16 and they all agreed that if they put in > 2 bets on this board given previous action 66 does not win.