LHE 6/12 10 players main table - my main game - they will call with anything BTW, really. I know half the line up. I'm UTG with Q T (Royal pays $$$) so I limp. Two more limp and then an unknown to me (young Asian guy with head phones just came from the feeder table - MP) limps and the blinds come in. I look around and see 5 other players so the pot has 6 sb - $4, call it 4sb.

Flop: (5 sb) 9 Q 9 (6 players)

I bet, two fold, yag calls, 2 fold, BB calls (now 3).

Turn: (4 bb) 4 (3 players)

BB checks.

I have picked up a flush draw so I bet, yag calls, BB raises.

I think BB has a 9 but I wonder why he did not c/r flop. I play with this guy all the time and he likes to explain himself after the hand so I am sure he will tell me after the hand. Pot has 8 BB what does hero do here?

I call, yag calls.

River: Turn: (8 bb) J (3 players)

I have my flush: BB checks, I bet, yag raises, BB calls,

1) how many mistakes did our hapless hero make if any?

2) what about the river? hint: BB would have bet a full house here. He and I have logged several hours and he thinks that I am looser than I am. As said, he has a 9 so what does that leave the yag with? Maybe he has a worse flush, a straight or a 9 that he was thinking he was slowplaying.

I have no clue what the yag has here.

If you call or 3-bet the river, then you made 0 mistakes.

On the East coast, the river is probably a call, but in Cali it might be a 3-bet.

I raise PF, especially in LP games like this but I doubt just calling is a mistake. I'm sure others will chime in on that as well.

Given that you didn't have the nut flush draw, could yag have a flush draw too? He kept calling until the river Jd hit, so it fits the description of someone was drawing.

thanks - Just checking

without any reads a call is probably best on a paired board and not the nut flush - but sure can't fold.

I did get a few reads on this guy for the next time we cross paths (under the heading of 6/12 players will call with anything - what a profound and very true statement).

I don't see 6/12 players raise-bluffing in a 3-way pot, especially after 2 bets go in on the turn. You can't fold, and you can't 3-bet.
-Curtis

I have to agree; I am not sure at what level they start to raise bluff the river.

BTW

6/12 I usually win on the river when I am not raised - ldo sometimes I am surpriese by a passive player that will just call.

Thanks

If this is really true, you should be looking for places to make thinner value bets. To wit, if you bet-get called-lose and feel dumb for betting every time that happens, you risk missing value by checking too many sketchy situations when you should bet and hope trash calls you; you risk getting called by a better hand, but you should be willing to take that risk fairly often.

If you try to add this to your game in a dramatic fashion, decide before you make the bet how you'll handle a raise, as betting thin puts you in more delicate situations where bet-folding turns out correct. Or maybe you aren't checking winners that often, and are just stating the obvious (that a majority of value bets win on the river)...
-Curtis

It sure sounds like you are up against 9X and 2 hearts. You can't 3 but I will never fold. I didnt see any mistakes.

+1

The only way to make money on this table is to value bet and when they do not raise me I am relieved. If they have a better hand that is the breaks.

Curtis - you nailed it. I still check the winner too often but not as much as I used to. I checked JJ vs two guys and had the winner - they mucked so I am not sure if they would have called but I think I missed one bet.

Sometimes I can't bring myself to bet the river when I am leading and 3 guys are calling me and the river makes one or more draws and I have one pair.

Missing a river bet is missing a lot of value - m-way and someone raises then that is easier to fold - HU b/f is harder unless I know the player well.

Example I have AA MP, raise pf (5 callers), bet the flop (3 callers), bet the turn (2 callers), I bet the river, next (bad and passive player) raises, BB calls, and I

[ ] call
[ ] fold
[ ] raise

Board: 7 Q 5, 6, 7

BTW - mark your calenders - ducks posted a hand where the feed back was that he made 0 mistakes. That makes up for the dump post in Micro.

I hope that these aren't meant to suggest that you wouldn't have limped or bet without those. Preflop QTs EP is a solid limp in live games even without a royal flush bonus, and turn cbet is standard even if you didn't pick up a flush draw.

Call river, nh. YAG likely has two diamonds, but there are enough Ax and Kx combos out there that you don't have enough to raise against lower suited connectors.

ni han

Royal $$$ is an extra reason to play the hand, no thinking of who is behind me and if they might raise etc. I am not folding QTs anywhere but if UTG+1 is TAG and pops me I am not that happy if half the line up folds. Just the chance we take EP. These table are loose and I expect 5-6 even with a raise.

On a TAG table I will be folding QTs EP. Live I have only played on a few TAG tables and those were are the Bellagio > 4/8. Online anything over .25 is mostly tight and QTs EP sucks.

thanks

blech

fyp

no offense threeducks but at your current skill level you arent going to make money at TAG tables, so dont play in them.

also playing super nitty at a TAG table is not the way to beat it. you cant outfold people who are already folding all the time. actually against nitty TAGs raising QTs in EP is probably the best play as you'll get them to LOL fold AJ and KQ.

How very true - I sat down on an 8/16 (limit between 4/8 and 15/30) at the Bellagio a few years ago - young and full of piss and vinegar. LOL - that lasted about $350 and 5 orbits. Back to 4/8 when a seat opened. *smack*

I folded 77 and AJo EP - only played a few hands - finally got a great hand and took a nasty bad beat and left - way out of my league.

Need a different playing style to play these games.

Getting a better hand to fold - $0
Getting a worse hand to call - $90
Hitting your hand and having it hold up - priceless

Did I say "blech"?
I actually meant what Kit said.

Never folding, rarely raising in this situation against known players and never raising against an unknown player.