Ok I know it's a dumb question but I've got to ask for some advice here. I've been playing limit for several years online and in the B&M's. I'm a long term winning player according to PokerTracker and my Excel spreadsheets for live play, that I fill out religiously. I've read SSHE multiple times and actually I'm finishing it again now. I've been in a recent small downswing live, nothing to out of the ordinary, but I feel like I have one area that I'm consistently loosing money on...over cards.

I'm just second guessing myself on how to play my big over cards on a missed flop with no real good draws, even back door draws. You know the typical hands like AK, AQ, AJ, KQ (suited and not) etc. Raise it up PF, get 5+ callers and totally miss the flop. No matter what position I'm in, I'm second guessing myself on what to do. I bet, everyone calls. Now I'm totally lost on the turn...check fold? Bet again? Late position, bet to me on the flop....call? Fold?

I just feel lost with these type of hands post flop. If I can at least pick up a draw, I feel like I know what to do, but with air, even on a totally uncoordinated board, I just feel checking is bad, but betting seems to just cost me money. I feel like I'm either check folding too often or betting it all the way down to find out I'm beat by 3 players with some sort of pair that don't raise me.

Thoughts? Sorry for such a noob question, especially from a guy who plays alot of poker, but I think I'm just second guessing myself right now. I feel like I'm playing over aggressively with some of these hands and too passively with some of my big draws or middle pair type hands with decent draws.

Thoughts?

As always, it is very situational dependent. Rules of thumb rarely if ever work.

That said, one rule of thumb that will work better than most, is, if you raise pf, and get 5+ callers, I think unless you flop a draw or a back door draw, c-betting is probably -ev.

There are a lot of considerations in c-betting whiffed flops with overs. If you're doing it with five cc'ers behind, it's no surprise that you're losing money and I'd encourage you to plug this asap. I also think flop texture and the tendencies of your remaining opponents are very important considerations when playing UI overs from the flop on.

I do have one question for you though. Where are you finding ol games where your pf opens are getting 5+ callers?

When I whiff the flop and just have overs I generally don't c-bet vs 3+ opponents. The pots are usually big enough at this point where I can just check and peel for one bet (although folding is sometimes an option too depending on board), and thankfully the tables are usually passive enough where I don't face 2bets (where I'd probably have to fold). Versus only 2 opponents I kinda get aggressive/spewy and start barrelling / playing poker. 3 opponents is sorta that in-between grey area.

GcluelessnoobG

Yeah, but I still c-bet 100% of my range against 2 opponents... unless they're both uber loose and I have no draw or showdown value. This is pretty uncommon though.

Once we we get to >2 opponents my c-bet drops off significantly and I start looking for those K72 boards with 2 nitty villains.

Hmm, two overs on that board would be tough w/o jokers.

No real rule we can follow here for an "everytime" strategy of course, but I'd say calm down your c-bets into larger fields.
Sometimes it's fine cuz hey, we may still be ahead.

These two situations are pretty different.

(1) Early position. As others have pointed out, it's generally counterproductive to cbet from early position with many callers without something to grab on to. I usually don't cbet unless I've picked up a flush draw or OESD, or unless people have a tendency to fold on the flop. Check-fold otherwise IMO.

(2) Late position. If someone's bet into you, simply call when you have the outs to call. You don't need to raise a pot just to prove you weren't kidding about your PFR. If it's checked to you, I'd advocate cbetting with almost anything - backdoor draws, etc. - unless people are check-raise happy (80% of the check-raises are done by 20% of the people IMO, so you should be aware when you've got one at your table). It will very likely buy you a free card on the turn, at least in my experience, where I play.

Minor nit point: you don't have two overs on a K72 board.

How about Q72... or J72

I was really just trying (and apparently failing) to talk about c-betting in general...

Cake imo.

Horsehoe, Shreveport, La. Standard. Just got through with a 5 hour session and 5-7 seeing the flop was standard and there would be virtually no one drop out for one bet from a late position flop bettor. Very juicy. I paid close attention to flop betting to see how many players would fold. It was rare that more than 2 players would fold to a $4 flop bet and most turns were seen with 5 players. Pretty juicy game. It would be even better if some of these weak players were a little more aggressive, getting more bets in the pot, but hey, check-callers still build pots.

Thank you all for the help. I ran into this situation a time or two today and I called a bet to me once in late position and the other time I checked it, missed the turn and folded to a bet. Since 5 players aren't folding to a $4-cbet I def. think playing the overs with no draws a little more passively is def. a money saver long term. Also I totally realize it's hard to answer a general question like that since everything in poker is situational, but SSHE gives alot of "general guidelines" on what to do with hands, even though every hand is still somewhat situational.

Thanks again for the replies, it just felt sort of wrong to be raising PF with AKs, totally missing the flop then checking but that's mainly because SSHE teaches you to be so aggressive.

I don't know what your opponents or the flop was like, but as already mentioned, a continuation bet was probably not going to serve any purpose after wiffling the flop. What were you trying to acheive?

- Taking the pot down right there? Against 5 opponents that probably wasn't going to happen.

- Trying to get value for the best hand? Again, it's unlikely that you do.

- trying to get a better hand to fold? Well, there's an arguement here. If the board wasn't too dangerous, and your opponents were more nitty than passive, you may be able to run them all down with a 2nd and 3rd barrel, but against 5 opponents, I just dont know that there is a good enough cost benefit to pursue this line.

Of course, since your flop bet didn't induce any folds, you should definitely check the turn.