Let's pretend that I play 4/8 LHE sufficiently well enough to win $4/hr over several trials (I said pretend). My wife wants me to take her to the casino where this game is spread - she plays 3/6 and penny slots. I find the 3/6 boring and therefore want to play the 4/8 kill.

Player wins 2x and the stakes are 8/16 and the killer post $8. No flop drop $1 for the jackpot. BB still is $4 and SB is still $2. So BB can not check and needs to add $4 when it is his turn - unless there is raise killer acts last.

Can anyone offer any suggestions for playing this game. Does the kill change any strategy or tactical decisions?

Play tighter/same/looser in a kill pot?
Does it matter where the kill is posted?
Does it matter if the killer is a TAG / LAG / Maniac?

My opinion (not worth much) is that it is not a good idea to win a bunch of 4/8 pots and then lose a bunch of 8/16 pots so you should be more selective in the 8/16 pots because the BB is still $4 - but the $8 kill kind of makes up for it.

Maybe the answer is to play the same game. The limit does not matter but the fact that there is an extra forced blind of $8 and he gets to act last should require some adjustments. If the killer is EP and can act last he can raise with his good hands after a bunch of limpers.

For instance, if the killer is EP and I am LP then I should only play hands that I am going to raise with or not be concerned if he raises. The Killer and he BB hand are random until one of them decides to put in a raise.

Thanks

My table usually really tightens up on a kill (lol, 3/6 with kill), so I do the opposite, loosen up and raise with a much wider range. My goal is to possibly win the killer's dead money (plus the blinds) right away, or get it HU (at worse 3way) and just c-bet my way to winning the pot. This usually only applies if I'm opening; if anyone has already limped then I usually just play straightforwardly (thinking that trying to iso-raise a limper in a kill pot *might* not be a good idea since they are usually playing tighter and are probably limping a hand that is crushing me).

Your table may differ.

GcluelessnoobG

Thanks

Mostly passive players - I have played this game about 15 times in the past two years. I usually play 6/12 LHE at Oaks. I considered loosing up in the kill trying to steal the dead money. Result orineted I found I was losing big pots that way. If I am a killer LP and most fold I auto-raise the blinds and any limpers. I think that I need to make some more adjustments.

It's been a while since I played a kill game (and the one I played had the killer acting in turn, not last), but I remember some things I noted.

1. Blinds don't call very often, whether the pot is open or not. If you raise a kill pot the SB only has out 1/8 of the amount to call, and BB only 1/4.

2. People usually tighten up because it's higher stakes. This is both preflop and postflop - if people tend to play highly speculative hands normally, they'll play fewer and speculate less.

3. Gauge how comfortable the killer is. There are some people who get extremely nervous because they've got a "ton" of money dead - they think of 4/8 kill as 4/8-ish rather than 6/12-ish, so posting $8 is huge to them. Then there are others who relish the kill button and play either normally or adjust correctly. Pick on the scared ones.

4. The killer rarely raised when I played, but this is seriously like 5 years ago when nobody really raised to begin with and I was the table maniac for raising AKo UTG.

I find that the players in kill pots fall into two categories: 1) those that really tighten up and those that loosen up. You need to understand who is what category.

Personally my limping and opening standard don't change EXCEPT I am more inclined to try to Isolate-raise especially if the remaining players are mostly of the tightening-up category AND the bettor is of the loosening-up category

If the pots are big, does that mean 4+ players are seeing the flop even with your raise? If so, I play fairly straightforwardly postflop (i.e. I ain't c-betting unless I hit the flop).

Usually 4+ to the flop - like said above there are one or two players that love kill pots and play almost every one of them. The players tend to call more with comments like it is just 8 more chips ... so c-betting and bluff go down in value. You need to make your hand -

Thanks for the ideas - I will be there this Sat and we will see how it goes. Last week was a disaster but the time before was fine. Can't be result orineted but I only go a few times a year.

I have played 23 times since 2005 and I am not beating the game. Between 2005 and 2007 I was winning $5/hr but then things started to go south again.

This is good - so reads are still just a valuable if not more. When the kill is on the mood changes a little for some of the players - some don't even notice and put up $4 until the dealer reminds them.

BTW, only 9 players.

When calculating pot odds make sure you take into account that if you won the previous hand you'll have to post 8 chips next hand... In a way those chips are lost.

Good point indeed. That is almost one big bet - $4 drop $1 tip $8 kill post = $13.

when i am OOP relative to the killer, i tend to tighten up a bit on my steals and raise stuff with better high card/pair value. when i am IP relative to the killer, i loosen up quite a bit on my steals and try to put a lot of pressure on the blinds and the killer. people tend to over-defend their kill because there are more chips in the pot and people love to "play their rush," so i'm usually chomping at the bit to play a big pot in position against an idiot with virtually ATC.

BTW OP, players hate to and hardly ever will fold their own Kill blinds that they post to a raise, regardless of what two cards they have

This is very important + you should also take into account how much worse your implied odds are when you have the kill btn ... you should tighten your limping range and your SB (and BB) completion ranges. No need to gamble it up in hopes of paying a 1 BB penalty.

I was correct in assuming that the kill does require some adjustments. Thanks to everyone for their input - as I said I will be playing tomorrow and see how it goes. Not much from one session but to scope out how they play. Looks like I will be here at least once a month (the wife likes the location).

Frond is right so to raise some one's kill post I need a good raising hand - e.g. tightened up some here.

I'm not sure this is correct (or what Frondsy meant?).

If there's a good chance it's gonna be HU between us and the ATC killer (i.e. we're in LP with no limpers), then I think we can widen (not tighten) our raising range because (a) even a wide raising range should be ahead of ATC on average plus (b) we have the initiative and can easily win most pots HU on the flop with a c-bet when both us and killer whiff.

I think we only have to tighten up our range if there have been limpers or we are in EP.

I think I understand what was meant but did not respond correctly - this is a little like raising a BB that you know will never fold but of course different.

Thanks for you further explanation -

Say the killer is LP and between you and the button - everyone folds to you. Killer is not going to fold ATC if raised. Assuming the BB will come in with a >40% range (has in $4 - needs to call $12), the btn will fold and the SB will fold - you are looking at a 3-way pot and you will be in the middle post flop. Maybe HU most of the time.

Raise 25% of your range? or more?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.508% 51.98% 01.69% 1816512827 58982763.00 { 55+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 46.492% 44.94% 01.69% 1570607935 58982763.00 { random }

If there are 2 limpers then that changes things.

Who said that post flop was easy?

Sorry, mind was on the Aria Spolier

Meant that if someone just won their 2nd pot in a row and posts their kill blind, they hardly ever will fold it facing a raise no matter what 2 cards they have. They could be UTG+1 posting their kill blind and the tightest rock of all time raises UTG, they usually still call with ATC. At least in the kill games I have played in they seem to think that they should never ever be folding their kill blinds. Just something to remember

Noted and a very good point.

Except last night was really weird. Some stupidly loose player wins 2 pots in a row, posts his kill blind(only a half kill game here btw)someone raises, a few callers then he folds??? He was playing like every hand and was a coldcalling machine. He even called quite a few ridic draws that got there and some that didn't but he then folds his kill blind??? Guess his cards were too high

Were you at Commerce last night (Friday) by any chance? I don't think you were at my table because there wasn't a single tough spot, but this does remind me of a player on a ridic heater I was sitting with.

could be.

Player called my raise with J6o when he posted his kill guess it proves your point. I learned later that he was playing north of 75% of his hands. So this begs a question:

8/16 kill is on LHE 10 players. Moderately loose and mostly passive game.

You have 99 and 3 fold to you. The aforementioned no-fold-em-killer is next. Do you raise, fold or limp? Explain your answer (could not resist saying that for all the professors on the forum. )

99 is too good to fold, limping violates the raise first-in policy , your raise is getting called.

Thanks

I have no experience in kill games, but if you're opening 99 from MP in your game normally, I would absolutely raise it in this spot. 99 > ATC that won't fold, imo. You're basically guaranteed more free money when you have a good hand and the killer won't fold, so I don't see the problem. If you're as good or better than the killer post flop to begin with, your spot is even better.

8/16 halfkill is my regular game, so a tl;dr post on killing it:

1. most tables significantly tighten up in kill pots, and most players will only limp hands they may normally raise with, thus I tend to iso-raise less often.
2. players REALLY tighten up on the turn, since the "double-bet" is a lot more than they're used to calling off, so there's more value in PFR, dbl barrel.
3. pots get bigger faster (obv), which means when you get to the turn multi-way, you're going to get looked up, since "the pot is big, i have to call" takes over.
4. i think i've seen the person with the kill fold like twice out of a few thousand times. i think it's a combo of being "priced in", running good (hey i already won 2 in a row), and since kill pots are a bit tighter, they are often heads up in raised pots (heads-up = 50/50 chance to win!).

my adjustments are that i tend to raise really light in position, really tighten up OOP, iso raise limpers less (they're limping strong hands, not garbage), and basically try to get heads up with killer as much as possible. i fire 2 barrels 75% plus, and don't worry about value-towning myself on the river, since valuebets are going to get paid off so much when the pot gets big. also, for the last 3 months, i've run well in kill pots, too, and that's a good strategy.

as for 99, that's an auto-raise for me. you've got a ton of equity v. the kill's random hand, and you're still not necessarily getting action from LP, since everyone plays tighter in kill pots. i don't like limping it, since doing that is probably going to end up multi-way OOP, and invites in the CO and BTN with hands that would fold for a raise. obv, limping guarantees at least 1 blind joins, and most likely both. i would limp if i had some kind of tell that the kill was going to open, and then would think about 3!.

however, if you know you're going to flop a set, you might want to limp to get it multi-way