Ten handed 3/6 LLHE seat 6 EP with A T

Preflop: UTG fold, call, call, I call, fold, old guy HJ call, fold, otb and blinds come in so we have 7 to the flop.

2 seats left of me HJ is a 65+ guy that ran up a rack+ and now giving it back. Left zero chips. Seat 2 BB is loose and aggressive player. UTG is aggressive and running hot with six racks. He mucked, preflop. UTG2 is a woman that plays serious but will check top two on river HU (passive).

Flop: T 5 3 (7 players, 6sb)

SB checks, BB bets, call, call, I raise, HJ calls, fold, fold, BB who 3!, UTG2 calls, fold, I cap, HJ calls, BB calls, UTG2 calls.

Turn: 8 (4 players, ~~~10bb)

BB bets, UTG2 folds, I call, HJ raises, BB 3!,

Two bets to me and not closing the betting.

Big pot but not good for me with one top pair top kicker and the old guy in HJ now raising. I think the 8 helped him. He hit a set twice on the turn already this session. I think he has 2 pair or better. I capped the flop because the BB is lag and I felt I had the best hand. But, he is still betting into me.

Action? Call or fold?

Based on the action BB is capable of having Tx, 53, 55, JJ-QQ, T5, T3, 33.
HJ combination that makes 2pr or 88.

Me thinks I need an Ace here. 15-1.

I don't mind pf and flop ... (although I really don't know if I'm capping there personally - I'd have to be there I suppose - but I don't think it's bad).

so is HJ passive?

If you were playing HU with him and he raised you would you not be bf'ing? I also think BB has a hand here.

That said you are getting odds to call for 2p or trips but if either one has a set you're drawing dead. On such a dry board vs so many ppl facing this much action it usually reeks of such ... and I would be comfortable folding in this situation.

Pre-flop: fine

Flop: I like the raise but I don't like the cap in this spot. You have position on the BB, so if he checks the turn on some draw after 3 betting the flop, you can bet the turn.

Turn: As played I think you have to fold when it is 2 back to you. It is possible that BB has 53 and HJ has T8, but a lot of time you are up against at least one set and are drawing dead.

One of the things that will probably help you analyze this situation away from the table is using PokerStove. You can't count the Ace as a clean out (ditto a T) in my view.

i dont wanna ,but think i am.....fold the turn for two bets
i also probablly(though u know vils,i dont)only call the 3bet on flop,
u need to know when its time to slow down,ur behind.
as u said,"me thinks i need an A here"and more preciselly,u may be drawing dead

Turn is a clear fold as played. I might raise PF but I don't mind limping here with this hand. I like the flop raise and cap; I think you're going to get value from a lot of hands especially since the BB is aggro.

NH imo.

Pre Flop:

I tend to raise here, but it depends on the game so w/e.....

Flop:

I'm with Grease and OP on this one: I think there is value to be had from a smaller 10 because of your read of "Aggro" on BB. He easily could 3! K/10, Q/10 here. I would.

Turn:

You're toast, unless HJ is a maniac. The read you've supplied on him is "65+ and giving back a rack". That could mean many different forms of tilt and terribad, but absent a really solid "maniac" read on both these players there is no way you are good.

In this situation I think they both have you beat and you are drawing to 3 outs at the most, possibly less or none, and possibly facing another raise.

This is a fold for me. NH.

Thanks guys. I capped the flop to pressure HJ and let BB know I think I had him beat. Neither got the memo. I don't like to raise ATo preflop but will ATs. I like the extra few % points of suited.

After this hand both left the table. I played a few more hands and I called it a day.

HJ passive and BB lag. Tough spot.

Thanks I will run some numbers. A Ten might be partical outs but it will probably give one a FH and me trips most of the time. An Ace will beat two pair but not a set.

A said the board is dry and mr passive is raising on the turn.

this is why you fold garbage PF,

and yes, ATo in EP in a limpy game is garbage. Even when you hit your hand, ie


T75, you still have to dodge literally every card in the deck twice to win the pot, since you have 6 opponents and they all have draws.

so yes, ATo, please be folding this garbage.

On the flop, you raise, good job, then it's 3bet, and you cap, I don't mind it, but I would wait for a good turn card, like a 2 or T or A to raise the turn instead of capping the flop.


On the turn, once it's bet/raised/and 3bet, I can't fold this hand fast enough, you are either drawing dead, or have 3 outs to a better two pair.

This is also why you fold garbage PF.

If you are in LP, and can raise one limper and get it 3 ways with ATo, great, but limping in a 7 way pot, gl with that.

I'd rather have Q6s in your spot than ATo.



In conclusion.

fold PF
don't cap flop, but not terrible if you do
turn, it's all over, easy fold.

Thanks

These are any Ace games. I don't much like ATo and usually fold it in 6/12 games but they will also play any Ace. In tough games I will fold ATo in a heartbeat. These 3/6 games are soft. They will call all the way with A2+ and pay off on the river if an Ace flops.

I will fold A8o-A2o. A9o+ is +EV in these games I think. A2s+ are trouble hands but when you make your flush (15-1) you rake in a lot of chips.

But, here if I have AJo and a Jack flopped I'm still in a tough spot. Jack has fewer over cards, King and Queen.

This would be true if our focus was winning pots.

If the focus is to win money we can probably raise AT for value in "any ace" games were players are playing down to A2.

Agree.

An Ace flops we have a 74% chance of having the best kicker.

In a 10-20 game, and you can get 3-4 ways for 2 bets, sure


In the game this guy is playing, even if you raise, you are going to be in a 12sb pot vs. 5 other players with ATo


this is actually a great flop for ATo, but vs. 5 players, you are a huge dog to win this hand.


EP ATo, fold please

you realize that if you have AT, and one guy has A2, yeah, you got that guy banged harder


what about the other 4-5 people that have 30 outs between them.

Even when you hit a great flop, the best you can ask for with a one pair hand flop (obv TT3 is better), even on the best flop you can get with one pair, you are losing almost always.

How many outs typically against us 7 ways when we have AA on the flop?

At how many players should we fold AA preflop?

you realize these are different spots right.


the truth is, in super limpy pots, hands like ATo and AJo and KTo go way down in value.

Flopping top pair in this situation is very tenuous at best. I see the point you are making with AA, but it's different because AA>ATo


I'm talking from years of live and online experience. If you play this hands UTG or UTG1, you will flop top pair and get run down. If one guy limps, and 3 fold, then raise to try to get it 3 or 4 ways.

OK I figure Im raising here about 100% of the time I play. you have a hand that is obviously in the raising range of most players and is at the bottom of the raising range of tight players. given that you are probably best except those limping low and mid pairs. youwant to position yourself aggreesivly against these players and hopefiully get them to put in another bet now then fold slightly better hands when they miss those times you do too.

furthermore you really dont want to play the hand against an entire herd of players. primarily because if you miss you will be in a place where you may have to play on because of implied odds but you will likely be up against scads of obscure drawing hands many of which will be getting good odds to play. in as much the bad players will be (perhaps) mistakenly playing correctly.

by raising you drive off many of these weak draws behind you that can come and reek havoc with your hand when you hit it.

I dont quite understand why you are calling this turn as next to act with a top pair hand you should want to raise and drive off the off K-J-Q combos. which are getting the odds to call with their gut shots and / or overcards.


given the above action I simply fold the turn for 2 bets.

sucks to fold the best hand with equity . sucks even more to pay off multiple big bets when drawing dead.

It is very hard to win often with one pair. But, I do think that top pair top kicker is +EV and that's what we need.

Say you win 30% with top-top. Against a large field you make money long term.

Timmer I did not raise the turn because usually after a capped flop the player donks with 2 pair or better. Some players prefer to check rise your butt.

Yesterday I flipped top pair of Jacks with king kicker. The turn was a 9 and a player bet, I raised, woman folded her gut shot that got there on the river.

Sometime aggression works, sometimes it just cost you chips. On this hand I choose to call the turn and fold.

Note: you lose more when you fail to bet when you win.

We don't fold AA unles you are a nut that likes to remind people that you folded AA face up one time at 6/12. Not me.

Got AA yesterday BB raised, flopped A77 bet out and won the hand. SB had T7 and other player had flush draw.

My point was to show that the reasons TheHip used to fold AT pf also apply to AA: against 7 players we'll have to dodge over 1/3 of the deck on some flops and lose a lot of pots.

Fortunately we don't play to win pots, but to win money. With 7 to the flop if we win "only" 1 in 5 we make money.

I'd be surprised if AT was a loser raising two limpers in "any ace" games (as in the OP).

I got you point. agree.

this is my point.

AA will make money from EP in any game


ATo will be at best a break even hand in a 3-6 limpfest with obscene rake.

I'm not trying to be cool or just argue to argue. Getting involved with KTo and ATo against 9 players is going to be a losing proposition.


I'd rather have 85s in this spot than ATo.

Why is AJo that much better than ATo?

If we are folding ATo then we should fold AJo as well. Then fold KJo, KTo, and QJo.

Play AKo, AQo, KQo?