Build a wall of chips around it so no one else would find it.

Providing and ensuring a fair game is the MOST important thing any poker player can do to protect their games. You're quite simply conflating skill with cheating to gain an advantage.

Say for example you are gambling with some guy on a one on one basketball match you will both play in. You played division Ii college ball, he's a dumpy middle aged guy with an over inflated ego and sense of his skill. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking the bet and playing an unfairly matched game.

It is another thing entirely to sereptitiously increase the diameter of the hoop on your end of the court by 10%; and what you're saying is akin to "well dude should protect himself and measure the hoops!". And you can bet for sure if the guy figures out what happened he's never going to gamble with you again, and he's also going to tell his friends never to gamble with you again.

Aside from the moral implications, how about this: Is the poker economy so robust that you can just fade that happening?

Your argument that it's everyone's responsibility to 'be observant' is just ridiculous. Of course it is, but it is also the responsibility of the players to help ensure a fair game. If you discover that all the aces in a deck are marked, are you not going to say anything because everyone else should be observant and figure it out? I mean, theoretically that info is a available to everyone too.

fwiw general procedure in these situations is to notify the player, and if they keep doing it after that, then fine, there's nothing you can do...do you live players tend to agree with this based on your experience?

Yeah, that's about right... though I usually give opponents a couple notifications.

Yup. Tho I've seen some players reminded multiple times per week over the years: they're usually the ones with failing eyesight that have to pick their cards way up to see them.

Fully agree!

Depends on the stakes, ldo.

Well, ownership has changed. Everyone in the NBA knew that the old ownership just didn't want to win very badly. But the new ownership has to do more than talk - they have to show everyone they want to win.

Ah well, Kwame Brown out for the season. It's getting worse instead of better.

It's not the same thing and you are in the wrong.

Or pretty drunk.

Take a few dollars out of the wallet and give some to your neighbor so you didn't feel guilty. Then your neighbor would break into your house and steal the credit cards out of it.

Every metaphor you guys have come up with so far is a false analogy.

I have played almost exclusively live and maybe that's why I think that:

1)Not letting other players see your cards is a basic poker skill.

2)Alerting the dealer and other players at the table when someone else is showing their cards is also a basic poker skill.

Of course I wouldn't take a bet on a slanted court or take money out of someone's wallet if I found it on the ground.

This is totally different, and I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
Flame away.

Pretty sure a good number of us who have responded have played many more hours than you have live.

pope is right. there, i said it.

Do you, or do you not agree that seeing cards gives you an unfair advantage over players at the other side of the table?.

If so, how can it be ok?

crueleye, let's say a player to your right was checking his cards in a way where you could see them only if you were to lean backwards and towards him a little bit. (basically you would have to make some kind of an effort to see them) what are you doing in this situation?

Yeah, but he wasn't.

It was obvious.

i realize that. i'm wondering what you would do in the situation i described

Crueleye, this is not a new debate. Having lurked the B&M forum for several years, I can tell you that a thread regarding the subject comes up about once a month or so. I can also tell you that this is not a debatable topic. As far as I know, every respected poster in B&M disagrees with you. Most topics discussed in B&M (tipping, IWTSTH, angles, etc) involve a variety of differing opinions. This is not one of them. You are simply wrong.

Paging limon

one time i told a fish to cover up his cards who was sitting to my immediate left - like the dude was careless and blatant about it. Man did he get upset with me. He thought I was telling him how to "play" poker. I mean he got REALLY defensive - calling me a "genius" as if I was some cocky player telling him what hands to raise and call with whatever and just acting like a total jerk ... I was just trying to help him out.

So an hour or two later I had QQ and I raise and he peeks at his cards and I see an A
I say: "Ace of hearts exposed."
He turned bright red.
the dealer: "do you have an Ace of hearts?"
Fish: no response.
Me: "I've been telling him to cover his cards all night."
Fish: no response - looks like he's gonna kill me!
The guy sitting to the fish's immediate left says: "I'm folding anyway I can verify." and takes a peek - he says "yes".
dealer: "ace of hearts exposed. Your hand is mucked sir."
The fish: "I don't *&^%^&*&^% believe it! call the floor!" he wanted a ruling to see if he could be dealt another card. Of course they said no and said his hand was mucked ... and at that the fish turns over his second card: A ...

After the debacle a few other people called and I won the hand at show-down.

Everybody agreed that I had acted appropriately (LDO!) and from then on he covered his cards. I still did him a favor.

Edit: ^^^^ that's not nice imo. You told him and he doesn't care, it's just a bonus for you that you get to see his cards. Killing his hand before he plays it is not cool. Just wait until he folds, tell the dealer that xx is mucked and he should tell the player what to do in the future.

One thing I'm not 100% on is when I think a card flashes when the cards are being delt. Part of keeping my focus live is watching everything that moves during a hand, just a habit. I don't watch everything, just more than most people.

Sometimes you see spots or paint but aren't sure exactly what it is. If I say something then the dealer asks what it is, if I answer correctly they take the card back. If I'm wrong then I slowed up the game and we know that the player doesn't have X card. If I'm right somebody loses an Ace and is not happy (rightfully so)

Obv not looking is the easy answer. If multiple people got a possible glimpse I usually say something if I can narrow it down by # of spots or paint.

I've asked dealers and they say if I see something I should say something, but I think thats just their standard PC answer. Another live consideration is that my looking 'changes' the normal outcome of a hand, which is something that a rec player has the right to care about.

this is straight up angle-shooting

Also, instead of "telling him to cover his cards" I just inform him that "I can see your cards when you look at them". People don't like being told what to do.

Won 17.5 BB from one person in two hands. How can I still be stuck?