Live, new 3-6 Full Kill game (9 players). Game is late at night, lots of LAGs looking for action.

This hand is not a Kill pot.

UTG calls, I am UTG+1 with 10J and I call, HJ and button call, SB Raise, BB 3 bet. UTG calls.

I am very certain that the other 2 players will call and I am also fairly sure that the pot will be capped (5 bets) by the blinds.


Fold? or Call and Hope?
What if there were less players or I held 910? Fold?

That is a good question - I would come along for the ride which might not be the right decision. It looks like a 6 way pot with 5 bets each. You might have 18% chance to win depending.

Raise pf and call all additional pf bets/raises. You're hand loves multi-way action and has great equity in a 6 way pot.

So would 10 J suited be about the bottom range for raising in EP for a loose aggressive game like this? I would normally just call EP with as high as QJs (depending on the game) and raise in late position with that sort of hand. Should I be raising more from EP?

I guess I am answering my own question, but in this game I don't think the EP raise will change very many people's decisions, so a raise here probably wouldn't thin the field... it might actually keep more people in seeing a chance to play a bigger pot.

whenever i see posts like this i immediately think the poster is a tagfish.

trying to thin the field with you have strong equity is a an assbackwards concept. you make money in LHE when people call with crap, not when they fold it.

Based on your game description in the OP, I was suggesting you raise and hope a bunch lags come along and even giving you the chance to re-raise/cap. You want opponents with this hand.

I think I wrote that poorly. I wasn't saying I wanted to thin the field. I was saying that raising here in EP actually might increase the field (which would be good) making more people call since everyone at the table just wanted to play a big pot.

this [/thread]

Anyone 4-betting here if you are 90% sure no one is folding?

I think limp/cap or raise/cap is the standard line here.

Here's where you are gambling, and this is a high variance play in early position in a loose, aggressive game. So it could be reasonable to fold this hand in ep, if pots are often getting reraised. Being in late position can let you see how many opponents you'll have, and have a better idea of how many bets are going in preflop. Postflop, being in position with this hand is also good because it will give you the best chance to manage pot size depending what you flop -- either building a monster, multiway pot with a strong draw or getting away when you miss and it's bet and raised.

That said, even though I don't love this hand in ep as much as I would in the cutoff or on the button, I still like it as long as we're going 4 way or more to the flop. And yes, if I'm playing it, it's an easy raise. For one thing, it keeps your raising range from being readable by opponents and may set up some deception for you postflop. Plus, you basically want to get in and gamble with strong suited connectors like this against a herd of weaker players, especially if they will call bets on later streets when you hit. You just don't want to be playing it heads up against a solid raiser.

In EP, I'd limp/re-raise this hand at a tightish table and raise/cap at a loose table (which this one sounds like it is).

As played, I think I'd just call the 3bet so as to ensure the two callers behind me come along for the ride; of course the SB will cap it and that's fine with me with this good multiway hand.

just cap it when it comes back to you. people rarely limp/fold in the lower stakes games, esepecially the late nite lags.

OP download pokerstove and come up ranges for these guys and then see how good JTs is compared to those ranges. the fliffsnotes is that we want lots of bets going in pf here.

directed at everyone else:
at a rowdy table, where its likely to get bumped up anyway, then i much prefer a LRR to a raise the first time around. i dont see why we would want to discourage people from entering the pot...

This is not a LRR because you have the limper in front of you. Your overlimp, then RR, looks like a "wtf" RR. Your hand is much more disguised if you raise pf, then re-raise or cap when given the opportunity. Your opponents will likely put you on a big PP and, if you hit a flop you like, they're likely to misplay their hands.

In the game described, I don't think your pfr is gonna "discourage people from entering the pot." Play your JTs equity hog in the manner in which it is befitting when you've got five opponents.

i think we could still rep AA/KK by overlimping and then LRR'ing when it's back to us. i know that this would be a bad way to play AA/KK, since with the limper already in it is just better to raise now. however, lots of bad players play AA/KK this way, in fact, i've seen them LRR from like late middle position sometimes. and when they try to put me on a hand they will use their own logic to do so, thus AA/KK will be a likely candidate.

besides, this is 3/6, who cares about deception? nobody's putting any thought into anything. i played 3/6 with my gf last nite and it can't be understated how ******ed these players are. even if they do suspect that my LRR means i have a speculative hand like JTs, i doubt that they're actually going to use this wisdom to their advantage and play their hand differently in any fashion. they're gonna pay off mindlessly because thats what they do.

dont get me wrong, if lots of pots end up getting limped around, then i am in the raise pf first time around camp, because playing JTs for one bet only is a pretty sad thought and makes me cry on the inside. but in an aggro game where it's quite likely to get bumped, i just don't see any benefit of being the guy to put in that first raise. sure sometimes it will get limped out, but this must get cancelled by the many times where i get to get 3 bets in (and often a wtf cap by a random player, because pots that get 3bet for some reason get capped with a super high frequency) as compared to only 2 had i raised initially. even lags have a way tighter 3bet range compared to their 2bet range.

Sigh. Are you suggesting that we do this, especially in light of your next comment? LRRing anything- with the expressed intention of doing so- in a game such as this, is an abomination.

We are presumably agreed in that no good player cares about deception in this game. It's all about equity and maximizing ours. The OP established the parameters:

We have JTs in what is likely to be a multi-way, multi-bet pot. Strap on the variance seltbelt, fetch another fun ticket or three and let's make gambooool.

[QUOTE=leo doc;13498622]Sigh. Are you suggesting that we do this, especially in light of your next comment?[QUOTE]

no no not suggesting we LRR AA/KK ever after there has already been a limper. all i was saying is that bad players wont be able to exclude AA/KK from our range when we LRR, because they don't understand when it is correct/incorrect to LRR big pairs and so their hand reading is bunk as a result.

so that i dont seem like im contradicting myself, i gotta make it clear that my intention to LRR JTs here has nothing to do with balance. in a tougher game, where people are paying attention and trying to hand read, an acceptable strategy would be to LRR these speculative multiway hands, and then LRR some big pairs as well (although not in this specific spot after there has been a limper). but in this game, i feel like deception is pointless, so the only reason i am interested in LRR'ing is because of pure equity/pokerstove reasons. i figure that if i can entice even one more person to enter the pot by limping as opposed to raising, i have gained EV because JTs in a 7way pot is better than JTs in a 6way pot.