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Holy Grail of Poker Holy Grail of Poker

01-31-2012 , 11:24 AM
I have to say that this is an amazing piece of software, I think others have mentioned that it provides a great baseline for decision making and you deviate from there based on opponents.

I purchased this after Black Friday, I am a casual player and I actually enjoy the game and wanted to work on math/decision making while waiting for poker to come back to the USA online. I played a bunch of hands vs the AI, and it has surprised me a few times, usually in a good way, but it is very consistent and very good, if I am going to a live game, I will setup a table, and put in AI opponents that I am likely to face there, fishy homegame, 1/2 charity, etc.. and I practice, its amazing how I learned what the simulator would do, and it would be the correct play almost all the time in those settings.

I then got antsy and opened an account on Cake, my winrate skyrocketed initially, its not good anymore, but what did impress me about my stats, is on the grader in PTR, I have A+ grades on every street but showdown which is a C- (I showdown more than 35% of players at the stake) Going to Poker Edge, it classifies me as a shark (Solid Tag) throughout the bulk of it, then on the last downswing I got gun shy a bit and morphed into a Rock.

I wish I could report a positive winrate, but its only 18K hands on Cake and I only deposited $50 to start so I dont have a good bankroll to be playing aggressively like I should be.

For me, seeing the improvement of my decision making, was a huge verification, that what I was learning from the Sim, was translating into good performance at the tables.

The Devs are very accomodating and listen to customer suggestions and are surprisingly fast to turn those suggestions into code and get an update out.

------


Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplexP
Hmm this thread is pretty much dead it seems. I had basically forgotten about this but now I am ready to try it, I'd like some input from players - did it actually improve your WR significantly you think, which part you like best, are there negative effects on your game too etc.

Right now I'm just interested in the scenario simulation, hopefully I'll get a good enough idea if I'm to buy it or not in 2 weeks


The toughest decisions in poker are faced on the river, the Sim's Preflop game is absolutely perfect, its flop game is amazing, I dont know if its just that because of the pre-flop and flop game being so good, that I dont get as much experience on the Turn/River with the sim or what, but my winrate ended up in the red over a small sample, it started out very high and just plumented, the Sim is not to blame for this, its my own play, so its hard to seperate what the Sim would have done, vs what I did, but I think the sim kept my winrate less red, if that makes sense, in fact I had a losing session that I remember clearly I was starting to tilt, and so I just went into the mode of "what would the sim do" and it ended up being a great session even though I lost money, it would have been much worse.

What I like about the sim, is that you dont need to multi-table it, because of the skip feature, if you want to practice multi-tabling different opponents, it can do that, I didnt notice performance issues, but I dont multi-table many when I play online either. Basically you can get a ton of hands in, in a very short time, which will allow you to learn faster than you realize.

The "play with cards Faceup" is awesome, its scary how the AI wont pay you off when you superuse on it, and its also good to see that the advice it is giving you, actually checks out with what hands villain shows up with, in terms of should we be folding. I always play with the advice off, and the cards hidden, then when I am in a spot where I think I should fold, but I am not sure, I treat it as a fold, then I look at villains cards, then I look at the advice. Basically after each hand, it tells you how you did, so I am playing and hoping to see that my result of the hand was "good job" and then if it deviates as "mistake" "Not Ideal" sometimes I dig into the advice, see where I went wrong. Usually it favors a check/bet over what you did as being more likely to make more money.

The Hand Range situation feature is new, its awesome so far, I cant wait to see what they add to it, I would like to see more, the hand situation that seems to come up often online, is I have AKs in late position, facing a very tight UTG open, the Sim wants you to get stacks in depending on how deep you are, I do this online and they always show up with AA or KK its just 90% of the time, so I put it in the range analysis, and I put the UTG on QQ+ AKo+ and I have position, the sim still wants me to be getting money in, and I would like to tailor it further to maybe adjust HUD stats on UTG such that he is only 4 betting with QQ+ AKo+ or even opening UTG with that tight a range, I dont think its going to want me to get all-in vs this opponent, it is amazing at how well AKs does if you start adding a couple more hands to his range, and its cool to be able to have the luxury of running this situation over and over and seeing how it will play out. You could also try to play against a strong range in position with suited connectors, etc.. and see how to extract value post flop, its just got a ton of posibilities, but its still new and there is room for improvement.

There is nothing else like this on the market, I've looked, this Simulator nails it as a tutor, for a good TAG baseline to work with, add more hands pre-flop, play spewier post-flop, however you deviate, the sim will give you a solid foundation to grow off. And it will help you post-flop even if you took a hand to the flop that it would not recommend.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
01-31-2012 , 11:44 AM
where can we get our hands on this?
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
02-01-2012 , 02:34 PM
www.holygrailofpoker.com

or did you mean something else?
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
02-13-2012 , 03:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justfoldpleaseok
where can we get our hands on this?

Did you find it!?
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
02-13-2012 , 08:53 AM
I seriously would advise spending $100 on this software. The worst thing is it never explains the reasons why it thinks an action is right, and that way you won't get a better understanding of the game.

If you spend the same amount on professional coaching you'll get far far more improvements on your game.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
05-19-2012 , 12:43 PM
Does it support Zoom poker ? Can´t find any information.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
07-29-2012 , 04:07 PM
Just gave the free trial a go and found some of the advice quite useful - especially when I loaded up 5000 hands from my poker tracker and used it to try to find leaks.

Preflop some of the advice seems a bit suspect - I have found a major issue:

I created a new player "total maniac" and maxed out the looseness and aggression stats (VPIP 100%, PFR 70%, AF 9 etc).

I then set up a hand situation where the table folded round to me on the button and there were two of these total maniacs in the blinds.

The idea was that I would see what kind of range I should be playing against very loose 3-bettors in the blinds.

Problem is that the AI didn't adjust it's advice and still recommended opening things like 87o and any suited cards where both were higher than a 7. Then when I got 3-bet it would simply recommend I fold!!!

Makes me wonder how good some of the rest of the advice is, although the postflop advice seems a bit better.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
08-29-2012 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Assassin
Just gave the free trial a go and found some of the advice quite useful - especially when I loaded up 5000 hands from my poker tracker and used it to try to find leaks.

Preflop some of the advice seems a bit suspect - I have found a major issue:

I created a new player "total maniac" and maxed out the looseness and aggression stats (VPIP 100%, PFR 70%, AF 9 etc).

I then set up a hand situation where the table folded round to me on the button and there were two of these total maniacs in the blinds.

The idea was that I would see what kind of range I should be playing against very loose 3-bettors in the blinds.

Problem is that the AI didn't adjust it's advice and still recommended opening things like 87o and any suited cards where both were higher than a 7. Then when I got 3-bet it would simply recommend I fold!!!

Makes me wonder how good some of the rest of the advice is, although the postflop advice seems a bit better.
any update on this issue? any explanation? refutal? I'd like to buy the software, but of course I don't want to get suboptimal advice from a ~$100 software.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
09-01-2012 , 03:12 AM
The program is not supported any more. And you have to pay $100 just for one year license. If you want to renew you have to pay again $100, which is a steal IMO.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
11-16-2012 , 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotis
The program is not supported any more. And you have to pay $100 just for one year license. If you want to renew you have to pay again $100, which is a steal IMO.

I am getting back into poker and remebered this thread and program. The guy was a botter who was kicked off several poker sites. He then came up with the HOG and was on here for a year or so making a lot of promises and pushing the product. Low and behold he stops posting and disappears with no goodbyes. The product is still being sold, but there is no support. Now, guess who is behind Skillbet.com? Yep, you guessed it.............................
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-20-2013 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Assassin
Just gave the free trial a go and found some of the advice quite useful - especially when I loaded up 5000 hands from my poker tracker and used it to try to find leaks.

Preflop some of the advice seems a bit suspect - I have found a major issue:

I created a new player "total maniac" and maxed out the looseness and aggression stats (VPIP 100%, PFR 70%, AF 9 etc).

I then set up a hand situation where the table folded round to me on the button and there were two of these total maniacs in the blinds.

The idea was that I would see what kind of range I should be playing against very loose 3-bettors in the blinds.

Problem is that the AI didn't adjust it's advice and still recommended opening things like 87o and any suited cards where both were higher than a 7. Then when I got 3-bet it would simply recommend I fold!!!

Makes me wonder how good some of the rest of the advice is, although the postflop advice seems a bit better.
Facing a 3 bet the software does not simulate; it follows some rules. The rules incorporate profiling, but not for extremely unusual profiling (like what you entered).

All play postflop and preflop play (beyond 3 bet) is simulated
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-20-2013 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr3
any update on this issue? any explanation? refutal? I'd like to buy the software, but of course I don't want to get suboptimal advice from a ~$100 software.
See above post.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-20-2013 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotis
The program is not supported any more. .
Support is back!
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-20-2013 , 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucianosDoll
Does it support Zoom poker ? Can´t find any information.
yup
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-20-2013 , 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justfoldpleaseok
where can we get our hands on this?
www.holygrailofpoker.com
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-20-2013 , 07:40 PM
This software looks pretty slick
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-21-2013 , 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayDee88
Support is back!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDING DIRTY69
I am getting back into poker and remebered this thread and program. The guy was a botter who was kicked off several poker sites. He then came up with the HOG and was on here for a year or so making a lot of promises and pushing the product. Low and behold he stops posting and disappears with no goodbyes. The product is still being sold, but there is no support. Now, guess who is behind Skillbet.com? Yep, you guessed it.............................
Probably best to respond to this post first if you are back on the scene or have taken over support of this software. You might then get at least a shred of credibility.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-21-2013 , 03:02 PM
Sure.

He opened an account and made about 20 posts solely saying bad things about us, mostly on www.skillbet.com but also here. He continued to do this (and nothing else on 2+2) until 2+2 moderators told him that he was unwelcome.

He's referring a blog post at

http://www.skillbet.com/blog/the-1st-idea/

regarding what an ex-employee did like 6 years ago when testing the AI as explained in that blog post. Here's the specific part

Several years ago during the early stages of development, we got to a stage where we thought we had an amazing program – but we did not know how good it was nor did we know where it’s leaks were. So we used it as a poker advisor and followed its advice. This allowed us to figure out its win rate and plug some common leaks.

Using the AI as an advisor may well have been wrong to do (some AI advisors like Calculatem were allowed but some were not). But at the time we felt we simply had no alternative if we wanted to find leaks and improvement opportunities. Fortunately, we no longer face this dilemma in improving the AI.

Today, we have a much better alternative that does not require using the AI as an advisor. Today, we have the AI replay hands played by very good professional poker players and we analyze when our program would make a decision different from the pros. This is a dramatically better way to find and plug leaks.


Note: www.SkillBet.com is our other product -- legal poker in 28 US states.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-21-2013 , 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerdamus
This software looks pretty slick
Thank you much!
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-21-2013 , 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by axe_effect
I have to say that this is an amazing piece of software, I think others have mentioned that it provides a great baseline for decision making and you deviate from there based on opponents.

I purchased this after Black Friday, I am a casual player and I actually enjoy the game and wanted to work on math/decision making while waiting for poker to come back to the USA online. I played a bunch of hands vs the AI, and it has surprised me a few times, usually in a good way, but it is very consistent and very good, if I am going to a live game, I will setup a table, and put in AI opponents that I am likely to face there, fishy homegame, 1/2 charity, etc.. and I practice, its amazing how I learned what the simulator would do, and it would be the correct play almost all the time in those settings.

I then got antsy and opened an account on Cake, my winrate skyrocketed initially, its not good anymore, but what did impress me about my stats, is on the grader in PTR, I have A+ grades on every street but showdown which is a C- (I showdown more than 35% of players at the stake) Going to Poker Edge, it classifies me as a shark (Solid Tag) throughout the bulk of it, then on the last downswing I got gun shy a bit and morphed into a Rock.

I wish I could report a positive winrate, but its only 18K hands on Cake and I only deposited $50 to start so I dont have a good bankroll to be playing aggressively like I should be.

For me, seeing the improvement of my decision making, was a huge verification, that what I was learning from the Sim, was translating into good performance at the tables.

The Devs are very accomodating and listen to customer suggestions and are surprisingly fast to turn those suggestions into code and get an update out.

------






The toughest decisions in poker are faced on the river, the Sim's Preflop game is absolutely perfect, its flop game is amazing, I dont know if its just that because of the pre-flop and flop game being so good, that I dont get as much experience on the Turn/River with the sim or what, but my winrate ended up in the red over a small sample, it started out very high and just plumented, the Sim is not to blame for this, its my own play, so its hard to seperate what the Sim would have done, vs what I did, but I think the sim kept my winrate less red, if that makes sense, in fact I had a losing session that I remember clearly I was starting to tilt, and so I just went into the mode of "what would the sim do" and it ended up being a great session even though I lost money, it would have been much worse.

What I like about the sim, is that you dont need to multi-table it, because of the skip feature, if you want to practice multi-tabling different opponents, it can do that, I didnt notice performance issues, but I dont multi-table many when I play online either. Basically you can get a ton of hands in, in a very short time, which will allow you to learn faster than you realize.

The "play with cards Faceup" is awesome, its scary how the AI wont pay you off when you superuse on it, and its also good to see that the advice it is giving you, actually checks out with what hands villain shows up with, in terms of should we be folding. I always play with the advice off, and the cards hidden, then when I am in a spot where I think I should fold, but I am not sure, I treat it as a fold, then I look at villains cards, then I look at the advice. Basically after each hand, it tells you how you did, so I am playing and hoping to see that my result of the hand was "good job" and then if it deviates as "mistake" "Not Ideal" sometimes I dig into the advice, see where I went wrong. Usually it favors a check/bet over what you did as being more likely to make more money.

The Hand Range situation feature is new, its awesome so far, I cant wait to see what they add to it, I would like to see more, the hand situation that seems to come up often online, is I have AKs in late position, facing a very tight UTG open, the Sim wants you to get stacks in depending on how deep you are, I do this online and they always show up with AA or KK its just 90% of the time, so I put it in the range analysis, and I put the UTG on QQ+ AKo+ and I have position, the sim still wants me to be getting money in, and I would like to tailor it further to maybe adjust HUD stats on UTG such that he is only 4 betting with QQ+ AKo+ or even opening UTG with that tight a range, I dont think its going to want me to get all-in vs this opponent, it is amazing at how well AKs does if you start adding a couple more hands to his range, and its cool to be able to have the luxury of running this situation over and over and seeing how it will play out. You could also try to play against a strong range in position with suited connectors, etc.. and see how to extract value post flop, its just got a ton of posibilities, but its still new and there is room for improvement.

There is nothing else like this on the market, I've looked, this Simulator nails it as a tutor, for a good TAG baseline to work with, add more hands pre-flop, play spewier post-flop, however you deviate, the sim will give you a solid foundation to grow off. And it will help you post-flop even if you took a hand to the flop that it would not recommend.
Thank you for the awesome report!
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-21-2013 , 05:44 PM
I tried out the free trial, it looks pretty good so far. I'm leaning towards buying it as the cost isn't much if it helps you win 1-3% more (depends on the stakes you are comfortable playing with as well).
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-22-2013 , 06:41 PM
I noticed you can only get one license per computer. Maybe a discounted price for each additional license you want to install it on?
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-22-2013 , 06:42 PM
I play poker on 3 computers, not to mention playing games (not poker yet) on tablets. Multi-license pricing would be preferable for me.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-22-2013 , 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerdamus
I noticed you can only get one license per computer. Maybe a discounted price for each additional license you want to install it on?
We should look into that. If you want that soon, please email support@holygrailofpoker.com.
Holy Grail of Poker Quote
03-23-2013 , 02:20 PM
hi just to confirm is this a $100 1 off payment or you have to pay $100 every year?
also does the software give any advice on choosing bet sizing?
Holy Grail of Poker Quote

      
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