Been thinking more about this proposed feature (import hands from PokerTracker, PokerStars, etc.). Now I don't think it buys us an awful lot in PokerCruncher. These hand histories contain a bunch of info. that doesn't apply in PokerCruncher, e.g. players' stack sizes and betting action and chip amounts street by street. This info. won't be imported into the app; only players' hole cards and the board cards would be imported. This would be a convenience, but it's not hard to enter, and in the Mac version (which is what you have TC01) it's very easy to enter because you can copy the cards' text and paste it into the text fields in the app. So we'd be adding a messy feature (keeping in sync with various hand history formats is guaranteed to be messy over time), and importing just 10% or 20% of the data.

Also, after this kind of hand history import, you have specific players' cards and specific board cards loaded into the app. This equity calc is useful, you can see who was ahead at each street, but is it the full goal/purpose of the app?, I think no. I think the main use of the app isn't just to play a hand back in retrospect after the specific cards are known, but to put opponents on hand ranges street by street, and refine the ranges as you get more info., and see what the best decisions were given the info. you had at the time, i.e. analysis. So I actually think an import feature from e.g. PokerStove format would be more useful, because you can then share a ranges scenario with someone using PokerStove. And re. a PokerStove import, it's most of the way there already, because you can copy/paste hand range text from Stove to Cruncher.

No final decision made on this feature yet, I like to let some feature ideas simmer for a while to weigh pros and cons. Thanks for discussion and ideas.

Hi,
Id like to input villains hole cards ( HUSNG 2 player ) and assign him a range by pasting in text or loading the .rng file.
If I load the .rng file first and then click on the input filed for villains hole cards the range disappears.
If I try the other way and input the hole card first and then load the .rng file the hole card disappears.

I saved the scenario here if it helps - http://www.stephenhiam.com/16_01_14.pcr

This is by design and is correct behavior.

Why would you want to assign both specific hole cards and a range at the same time? What would that mean? If you then hit "Calculate", what would the app pick for the player, the hole cards or the range?

If you want to assign multiple holdings to a player, do it using just the range feature. Note that you can select specific suit hand combos in the range editor so if you wanted to specify two specific cards as part of the range you can.

Also, you're talking about the Mac version here; for next time, note that this app has a separate Mac version thread.

Hi rj,
Thanks again for the quick reply.
Yes Im new to PokerCruncher and equity calculations so, knowing the hole cards from my hand history I wanted to just plug them in and see if how my equity changed. But obviously I hadn't really thought that one through ?!
So Thanks again and will move on to the Mac Thread next time.
GL !

No problem TC, feel free to fire away questions. The good/important thing is that you're taking initiative and asking questions rather than just remaining stuck. Just an fyi, if you're new to equity calcs and hand ranges the PokerCruncher tutorial may help.

Re. plugging in hole cards, there are two ways to do it:
1) The point and click way: use each player's Card1/Card2 fields and the 52-card deck.
2) Or you can copy the hole cards text from e.g. a hand history e.g. "AsKh" (without the quotes) and paste it into a player's hand range text field. The specific hand will be treated as a hand range (a minimal specific one hand combo hand range), but that's OK, will give the same results as 1).

Similarly for the board you can paste text e.g. "Jc 7d 2s" into the board's text field.

This!

I think people who need such advanced features are willing and able to pay some extra $

It's a good feature suggestion, I will implement it, but in the Mac version first, within a couple of months or so. The Mac version has been promoted/renamed to be the "Expert" version, vs. the "Advanced" iOS versions. I've already added some expert things like range equity distribution graphs to the Mac version, and I'm in the middle of adding more like calc'ing all the stats for the Turn in addition to for the Flop. If/when these expert features make it to the iOS versions, they'll be in the form of an expert-level paid upgrade.

The feature suggestion we're talking about here is to be able to narrow down or filter down a range from street to street in a couple of ways:
1) Keep only the hands/cells that have >= x% equity.
2) Keep only the hands/cells that hit the board in user-specified ways e.g. OnePair, FlushDraw, OpenEnder, etc. (turn on the checkbox for the stats you want to include).

Thanks for sending me a reminder about this feature.

Hi, I think I have come across a bug. Using the android Pokercruncher

AKo 61.1%
vs
TT-QQ, ATo+, ATs+ 38.9%

tie 16.4%

(1,000,000 enumerations)

If I add in 88, 99, KQo, KQs the equity of AKo actually DROPS to 60.5% vs 39.5%

with a tie 12.1%

(1,000,000 enumerations)

Am I being stupid here I feel like this is a simple enough calculation that I must be doing something fundamentally wrong

What do you think the result should be?

Thanks for the quick reply.

I would expect that the equity of AKo would increase with the addition of 9 combos of KQo, 3 combos of KQs and 6 combos each of 88 and 99 (12 combos total)

(AKo/xx) So 9 combos of 75/25, 3 combos of 70/30 and 12 combos of 45/55

14.25% : 9.75%

an increase of 1.46% ?


I am by no means well versed in odds maths so I appreciate you correcting me where I am wrong.
Perhaps I should've begun by posting this in the probability forum anyway...

I don't understand this part.

The way I look at it, AKo has 61.1% equity against the original range. Then we add KQo and KQs; AKo has about 74% equity against these averaged out. That's 12.9% over 61.1%. We also add 88 and 99; AKo has about 45% equity against these. That's 16.1% below 61.1%. The number of hand combos of KQo+KQs is the same as 88-99 due to card removal effect (12 each). But the "below" %age delta is bigger than the "above" %age delta so the overall equity should go down a little from 61.1%.

I think you may have been thinking of 50% as the baseline equity, instead of 61.1%?

Thanks for using the app and for looking at the numbers closely.

Thanks a lot for your reply. It makes sense but I'm still confused as I would expect AKo's equity to increase in this situation as it is a larger favourite in the 12 KQo/KQs combos than it is a dog in the other 12 88/99.

I'll take this to the probability forum though as it is a problem with me, not your app!

By the way, I have nothing but good things to say about Pokercruncher, it works very smoothly and is user-friendly/non-buggy, basically all the things you want in an app. + the layout/interface is very intuitive.

Re. the "... larger favorite ..." part, you are correct, but this is correct when viewing the situation with 50% equity as the baseline equity level. When the baseline equity level is higher e.g. 61.1% as in this case this reasoning isn't right.

I'll give an analogy which should help: say you have a 61% test score average so far in a class at school on the weekly tests. On the next two tests, you get 74% and 45%. Will your test score average go up or down after these two new tests? You started at 61% as your average. On the first test you beat your average by 13%. On the second test you were lower than your average by 16%. 16% is larger than 13%, so the overall effect of these two new tests is to bring your overall average down a little.

If it's still unclear we can discuss further no problem. Or yeah you can post this question on another forum for a different perspective.

Thanks for good words on the app. A fairly big app update is in the works with UI and functional improvements.

That makes a lot of sense. You are correct in saying that I was using 50% as the baseline equity but it took a while for me to understand what that meant

I don't have any questions or anything I just wanted to say what a truly awesome app this is...I just downloaded it (for iPad) and have only messed around with it for about an hour or two but I just wanted to say it is well worth the $5.99 and it is awesome that the developer comes here to 2 + 2 and helps people out with any questions they may have (regarding the app) and is open to suggestions for new features that could be added...

If you are even considering buying this app just go and spend the six dollars already!! you will not be disappointed!


Btw ...left you a nice 5 star review in the App Store

Keep up the good work!

Hey, thank you!, good to hear. Will do.
And thanks for the app store review; haven't seen it yet though (takes a day or so for app store pages to update).

The 5 or 6 bucks per iOS download is good for sure, as this app and its several versions have been a lot of work over the years. But I think it's not really about the 5 or 6 bucks per unit; I like poker and I like software so just took it as a mission to make a really good ranges + flop analysis app and I think (hope) the app got there.

Thanks for writing and getting involved.

Been using this a week or so and highly recommended for £2.99. Just the job.

Will be leaving an App Store review when I get time.

Cheers

Good to hear, thanks! App store reviews do help a lot, especially small independent devs.

An fyi re. the upcoming iOS 8 - the iPhone and iPad versions of this app have already been updated for running cleanly on iOS 8. Same for Tournament Cruncher. The update for Poker Odds Teacher has been submitted and should go live within a few days. Hold'em Odds Quizzer is the last app, am working on its update now, I'll submit it within a few days. Updates to the Teacher and Quizzer apps are long overdue and have other things like UI layout for both 3.5" and 4" screens.

Hi,
Just bought the bundle for the iphone, very good.
Now i realise how bad my equity assumptions are !!!!!
Get a bit lost trying to calc outs for set to full house in 'Odds Teacher' post flop scenario. I come to 7 outs but it says 10 ( or 9 ). Is it because it the turn card pairs on the river we have an additional two outs ?
Thanks for the great tools.

Thanks for getting the full bundle of apps.

Yes as you said on the turn the set picks up 3 additional outs that can pair up on the river (or just 2 additional outs if the turn card happens to be one of the villain's cards). So the set has 7 outs to improve going to the turn, and a little less than 10 outs on average to improve going to the river. The app averages this to 8 (really ~8.5) outs with two cards to go. Which is pretty similar to a flush draw's outs.

The OddsTeacher app is trying to give a simplified method that we can execute in our head even in real time, not get the exact answer, so it makes some estimates and roundings like this. To get the exact answer, have to use an odds calc. But the app's method gets us pretty close.

Hi,
Anothe question...
In the Post Flop Misc section of 'odds teacher' under 'set vs flush draw' for player 1's counter outs I come to 7 but the apps answer is 10 full house/4ofakind counter outs.
Scenario is
Player 1. 66
Flop is T,6,2.

I grabbed a pen and paper and came up with -
3xT to a full house,
3x2 to a full house,
1x6 to four of a kind
I'm kind of stuck here, could you help me I'm sure im making a simple mistake somewhere.
Many thanks app is great !

Your answer 7 is correct when going from the flop to the turn (3 cards on the board so far). But this step (Step 2 in the app) is counter-outs, not outs. Player2 has improved and made a flush, so there are now 4 cards on the board. The set then has 3 additional outs on top of your 7 to pair up, so has 10 counter outs on the flush.
Thanks for your persistence in understanding the app and the situations it gives.

So its one of the flush cards that becomes the counter out to player one, for example player 2's turn card is a 7s, therefore there are 3 more 7's that could drop on the river to make an additional full house for player one.

Got it, THANKS for taking the time to explain :-)

Hi, Me again :-)
Poker Teacher Question,

Section - Post Flop Top Pair.
Top Pair vs Over Pair
Q. How many counter outs does player two have.
Error: (A) Counter Outs.
Your Answer: 8
Correct Answer: 5
'well estimate and average this to 5 out: (2+(2+6))/2.

When / How do we know when we will be making such an assumption when calculating on the fly..? Or are we trying to learn this by rote ?

I want to get/learn this in a solid way, just need a bit more help with my understanding / thinking / direction / method.

Many Thanks.
S.

The "Odds Teacher" app's goal is not to get you to learn the odds by rote/memorization, but to show you a general method that can be used for any situation/scenario.

There is no "assumption" (your word) here that the app is making. The answer 5 counter-outs that the app expects is arrived at by only outs-counting and logic, as the app explains in this scenario's Step 2:

Player1: QTo.
Player2: AA.
Flop: T62 rainbow.

The app says:
"Player2 has 2 Ace counter-outs and has 6 additional SixTwo counterfeit outs on Player1's Queen outs. We'll estimate and average this to 5 outs: (2 + (2+6))/2."

There are two ways that the QTo TopPair can improve on AA:
1) Hit a T to make ThreeOfAKind: In this case AA has only 2 counter outs (has to hit an Ace).
2) Hit a Q to make TwoPair: In this case AA has 6 additional counter-outs on top of the 2 Ace counter-outs: hitting a 6 or a 2 which counterfeits the QT TwoPair.

The app then says to estimate and average this out to 5 counter-outs (the average of 2 and 8). This isn't exact but is good enough as you're just trying to estimate the odds here. The only way to get the exact answer is to use an odds calc.

And if you follow the app's instructions and logic through to Step2 and then to Step3, you'll see that the method does get you very close to the actual equity answer here.

I'll say again: this isn't an easy app, and I've also said this in the app's App Store description. It's probably the most challenging of the PokerCruncher apps. But it's because its goal is challenging: to teach a general method instead of just memorizing many cases. And because it's challenging, it'll require more thinking and work by the user.