thanks

i will stay with 2% even if we start with 10 horses and send the correct amount of money, then 43$

TOTAL
- 1505$ (7x 215$)

INVESTORS
- 105$ - Yakmelk recieved
- 100$ - HotzenplOdds
- 100$ - tommys girl recieved
- 75,25$ - Doctor_No
- 75,25$ - KuPoB_K
- 30,10$ - Birgit70
_________________
- 485,60$ -

STILL AVAILABLE
- 1019,40$

I will open the thread with the definite 10 horses tonight. I have found some quality horses since yesterday both in results but also in trustworthyness. I will link to this new thread in the bottom of this thread and ask to have it closed to avoid complications.

As i said above write me up with $100 when you get the horse number up to 10

Roger that KuPoB_K. So I now have a list of 13 horses and Iam probably going to be closing the applications. Iam having everyone without any serious references send their ID as a copy, have asked most and nobody made a big deal. Iam looking for someone to escrow the ID's and preferably the money as well. I think a 1% of the total winnings vig can be awarded if the member is ++ reputable.

As far as the horses go, I have 13 fitting horses now (IMO), I can have a poll for investors to have 3 dropped OR I can close the apps with 13 horses making it a total of 2795$. Current shares will diminish in value a bit but more horses will be staked. Please PM or post some suggestions here. Also I have decided to drop 1 horse from the original list since there were some trust issue's. IAM NOT SAYING THIS HORSE CANNOT BE TRUSTED, IAM JUST SAYING WE CHOSE THE SAFE PATH.

Furthermore I'd like to add on a investors note that its impossible to secure a horse for 100% (unless you put them in a house in Vegas, lol still, sick brag). All the horses listed here have tried their best to show their best interest and noone have had problems with escrowing ID or coming forward with personal information. Alot of horses have actually give me more personal information than I asked for but Iam obviously not posting this in the public forums. Specific request for references of specific horses can be requested with me or the horse himself. I hope we can have some fun and that the horses will be able to prove themselfs trustworthy.

So basicly future and current investors can PM me for the final decision on the stable:
PM me if you prefer these 13 horses to be staked or that only 10 are staked, if only 10 please vote 3 horses out.

I hope investors will chose the first option but I understand any choice made and obviously will respect that. If needed il make the PM's public for checking by someone.

Little delay, I'll open up the new topic in about 8/10 hours so people can voice their oppinions on the stable size. I will judge by the votes that have been recieved up untill then.

THE HORSES

_________________________________________________

caddymix024;
[x] references - His brother; ndahlhoff10 who has ran different staking threads (running FTOPS schedule atm) vouched for him
[x] FTP - http://officialpokerrankings.com/ful...196474BC8.html
[x] PS - http://officialpokerrankings.com/pok...6B59EABCB.html

_________________________________________________

judgedredd13;
[x] references - Email/Facebook, Staked by 2+2'er and has some HSMTT ref's
[x] PS - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...DDDEAE06A.html

_________________________________________________

peeedor;
[x] references - PI (PokerInfo.nl) small Dutch Pokerforum but very close. Reference from rep. player on Everest and owner of the forum who know each other IRL. Thread where he applied; http://www.pokerinfo.nl/Topic1064636...aspx#bm1064714. He has 2+2 account and will be posting HHs.
[x] PS - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...9DF47A210.html

_________________________________________________

cld343;
[x] references - Escrowing piece of ID
[x] FTP - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...C17FC90B9.html
[x] PS - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...9DA5C83E2.html
[x] UB - http://www.fragnet.nl/cld343_stats.jpg

_________________________________________________

tommys girl;
[x] references - Betfair forum, Live player, Looking for MTT Backer here including some results http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...backer-711515/, will be escrowing ID piece
[x] IPN - http://www.fragnet.nl/charwell_stats.jpg
[x] FTP - http://officialpokerrankings.com/ful...8E4DFEF53.html

_________________________________________________

lukethefluke;
[x] references - Alot of 2+2 ref's and past staking threads
[x] PS - http://officialpokerrankings.com/pok...6263C7752.html
[x] FTP - http://officialpokerrankings.com/ful...DD59E23E9.html

_________________________________________________

blackopc;
[x] references - PI (Dutch forum) is known IRL
[x] PS - http://officialpokerrankings.com/pok...7E97A930B.html

_________________________________________________

swollen1;
[x] references - Some very reputable 2+2 members
[x] PS - http://officialpokerrankings.com/pok...77B66DD91.html

_________________________________________________

ziepel;
[x] references - PI (dutch poker forum) is known IRL
[x] PS - http://officialpokerrankings.com/pok...D93D69496.html

_________________________________________________

Do_Wha;
[x] references - Backed several times, also references on 2+2
[x] PS - http://officialpokerrankings.com/pok...9BC9EC1E9.html

_________________________________________________

KuPoB_K;
[x] references - Staking thread http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...thread-694903/ - Sells poker MODs on http://www.fozzypokermods.com/kpkftpmods.html
[x] FTP - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...2F2C4D8CA.html
[x] PS - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...57CA13435.html
Player has been able to send a few screenshots on winnings on the Pacific Network.

_________________________________________________

mixie1;
[x] references - Live player, rep. on Pokernews.com and a international live player as well.
[x] Ipoker - http://www.pokerprolabs.com/bipbippp/ipoker.aspx

_________________________________________________

YouHave2Outs;
[x] references - known/rep. 180 SNG player, 2+2 references
[x] PS - http://officialpokerrankings.com/pok...4034D59B4.html

_________________________________________________

I'll take 200

shipped

I am in for 10% regardless of how many horses you have.

Will ship Friday or Saturday.

ok, something doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but maybe i got this wrong.

you say the staking deal is 80/20 or even 70/30 and 65/30 does that mean the stakers take 80% to 65% of the prize but we're staking them 100% in the tournament?

you say there is "no mark up" but really the mark up is ridiculous

im paying 100% of a horses action for 80% of his profit(when i should only pay 80% for 80% in a no mark up stake)

so that effectively means im paying 25% more...
80%x1.25=100%
which is a 25% markup at 80/20 and a 53% mark up at 65/35

im probably wrong. because that's ridiculous

make up and markup are 2 different words.

regardless, no one has the ROI to justify that high of a mark up

With no make up I actually ment that the horse is not paying back any of the buyins.

I do understand your point but basicly this is a one time high variance MTT backing where the horse is chosen on trustworthyness and obviously results.

In this case you are right, allthough the markup would be still very high on a 80/20 no make up and this doesnt change a whole lot except for taking away some incentives to scam/run. I think EFFECTIVELY the markup/ROI on this stake is lower then 80/20 since;
- players get a better deal, less incentives to scam, more reason to perform
- we are actually able to recruit better and more trustworthy players this way

Ive had several solid winning trustworthy players add their names to the list AFTER changing the deal to 70/30.

Also this still is a slight gambol obviously, we are backing a few players in the (high variance) SM and hopefully taking down that 1000K (cant see us failing anymore tbh ). Anyone that has a question on this PLEASE do post or PM like aznth3on3. I rather have all the questions out in the open so everybody understand whats going on.

I will confirm all the transfers recieved in a few hours, at work atm!

guess since you want questions out in the open, i will post mine here


offering 70/30 (and than 65/35 when they make the ft) is just insane from a backers perspective. give them more money when they actually make it to the legit stages...? there are reasons why people dont invest in the marketplace for an extended period of time. staking deals like this, are probably in the top 5 of the reasons (#1 is staking that scammer mytime2shine)

Thanks for responding Zima. I introduced my post stating that I have seen this done here and there and I wanted to try and get the same up and going. Iam NOT an experienced staker however, I WOULD like to become one. I think one can learn the best from mistakes he makes and by being guided by his peers. I specifically asked for suggestions on any part of the deal to be able to adjust so thanks for voicing your oppinion! I didnt mean to start a bad deal or whatever, just figured some people would be down with this.

Zima, could you maybe express what would make this deal better for backers ? Also I thought the deal getting better the further the player gets was just fine since the profit would simply be higher and the player would be extra rewarded to make it to a later stage. Again, Iam just trying to make this work and think there should be a good chance of working it out, I think we just have to get into details a bit more. Thanks again for responding Zima, I appreciate it.

it should be 80/20 for the deal. if individual stakers feel they should give some sort of tip to players on their performance, thats on them.


making it 70/30, than 65/35 for ft finishes just kills the backers investment.


i will think stuff over and post something tomorrow as well.



edit: even though i dont generally like investing in "buying pieces" stuff, i was going to invest in this until you move it to 70/30 and 65/35. woulda been a fun sweat. 80/20 is more than fair for a 1 time deal

Thanks again Zima, really appreciate your help. Iam not trying to scam or offer people bad deals on purpose and really hoping to get this off the ground after all.

Do you think seperate deal's for very trustworthy and solid players are in place ? I have a few horses who are kind off "zero risk horses" (alltought that prolly doesnt exist) because of the amount of references in real life and on 2+2. As someone told me its not just their results that tells you their ROI but also the trustworthyness of a horse is very important and a big part of the ROI. Looking forward to figuring this out.

I think I still have some time left to figure this out since an amount of the action is allready taken and the game itself is still a few days to go. Iam happy I started a bit soon .

0% risk doesnt happen.


you seem to be very organized. this will work out as long as you keep on top of it.


edit: i in no way think you are trying to scame backers (as you stated in your post). just trying to give my view on the situation. most people forget that when they supply the money, it's their rules that count, not what the horse is wanting.

I have a very limited experience with backing/stacking but i kind of agree with Zima here. It is a very high variance 1 time deal so i think the backer should get a little more than 70% of the horse winnings. I think 80/20 in backers favor is fair game for the most part, HOWEVER i strongly believe a horse should get an incentive for top performance. Let's say 75/25 in backers favor for Final tabling and something like 70/30 in backers favor for top 3 finish. I think this way a horse will be more motivated in getting higher in the money ladder and not looking for an early chop.
This is me speaking as both, a backer and a horse in this.
Let me know what do you guys think of the above...
Obviously i'm fine with whatever the comunity decides, this is just my opininon.

Iam actually very interested in hearing the player's and investor's stand on this. Please share your oppinion here, dont forget allthough I initiated this I can't do **** without a good stable of horses and a group off investors who share faith in before mentioned stable.

meh zima defo knows his staking so its hard to disagree with him. i think the 'incentive' for the horse to get deep is the stupidest part really...backing can only be profitable in the long run if backers get the same percentage of big cashes as they bought in shares...like mtts the vast majority of profit comes from a few large scores rather than consistant mincashing.

the only reason i rejoined this idea as a horse was because i thought the 70/30 offer was too good to turn down...im compensating my friend who woulda had 50% of me...if it reverts back to 80/20 i'll just do what i was gonna do anyway and swap with him probably. no hard feelings if thats whats decided.

obv this is a good deal for horses, but hopefully it can also be profitable for backers. potential roi will increase a fair amount in a tourney of this size for competent mtt players, but so does the variance.

so basically i would vote to scrap the 65/35 part if changes are gonna be made, but will let the main investors decide before i decide whether to be a horse or invest. someone needs to make a decision and say 'these are the terms...do you accept horses? (yes) do you accept investors? (yes)' because until we know what the final deal will be its impossible to decide whether its worth it to be a horse or invest or neither or both.

Obv don't post on 2+2 frequently, but anyway am interested here as a backer. Also, I am pretty new to stacking. However, this horse model sounds like a good idea.
OP, could you briefly summarize the updated conditions of the whole deal and also give an update how much is still available.

I agree with you lukethefluke. You are obviously one of the trusted horses with solid results which made me think of changing the deal together with some other horses. Iam aware there needs to be decision making at a certain point for the sake of clearity but I just figured that we've got some time left and since Iam at work anyway now I wondered it would be fine to use these moments left to gather some information on how everyone their view is.

If I were more reputable I dont think I would go through this this way but since my status is more or less the one of an unknown I figured I'd get more response if I let everyone take part in the proces. The decision WILL be made today and as I said I respect Zima's oppinion alot as he is (one of) the more experienced staker(s) that has been part of this discussion. Ill PM some more horses to see if they feel like stating their oppinion on this.

*EDIT*
SeppTheEgg:
There is alot of action left, at least between 1k and 1.5k on these conditions/horses. As said in post above, Iam going to make the final decision tonight and I will post a completely fresh investors thread with the selected horses and available % in the OP. Shouldnt take much longer then 4 to 6 hours since Iam at work atm.

I'm interested as an investor, sent PM 2 days ago. Would a bump back toward the original staking % but keeping the FT incentive be agreeable to both horses and investors? 75/25 split with FT moving to 70/30? I'd be up for this as investor, would we have a good field of horses?

Just as an update, I have sent the horses this PM, depending on how this develops I think this is a (more) fair arrangement:

Hi,

Ive send this mail to all horses to poll interest. Iam going to make the final decision tonight but Zima (an experienced staker) has voiced some issue's. Its obvious that stakee's would rather have the best deal possible but there should also be some incentive to invest. So Iam asking to please have a look at the last few posts from Zima here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...serves-709568/
There are alot of valid arguments posted by both backers and stakers, so have a look and voice your oppinion. Tell me what kind of deal you still think is fair since Iam not 100% sure I'll be able to fill the investors pool on these terms. KuPoB hits it right on the head and thats why I will suggest this deal to be somewhat more fair towards backers since we ARE talking about a 1 time no makeup high variance MTT staking:
80/20 - 75/25 last 12 - 70/30 last 3

Please let me know. As stated in the thread I wished to let everyone participate in the discussion on this since I dont have the reputation on this forum to be able to say "this is the deal and this is fair" while ignoring valid arguments from experienced long time stakers. Hope not to cause to much hassle,

kind regards
yakmelk

actually i have an other question: As i understand, the whole deal will only work if all shares are sold. Otherwise we won`t start at all right?