Problem of the Week 5 - Pool, Snooker, and Billiards -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

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Problem of the Week 5

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09-15-2010 , 02:14 PM

gregorio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 37,572

Posting this on behalf of Wamy.

This is an amateur nine ball problem from a cash game I was recently playing. We are playing on a well cut and well maintained bar room pool table, against an opponent who we are significantly better than, but who we have handicapped thoroughly. Part of this handicap includes not being allowed to jump shot at all or pot any ball using billiards or canons on any shot other than the break, although the opponent is allowed to do all three of these.

Although our opponent is relatively weak, they are not terrible, and it should be assumed that from most positions on the table they will have a solid chance at either potting the seven direct or playing it onto the nine or eight (both of which are obviously huge targets with the balls so deep into the pocket).

Best shot and why?

Problem five solution.

Spoiler:

Problem five sees us in strange territory in a game of nine ball. The handicap came about due to me winning many of the early frames with cannons, billiards, and jump shots, which seemed to tilt him into demanding this odd handicap on top of the spot I was already giving him (the break and the 8). Not normally a big deal, but then strangely enough a situation came up where this was actually a huge problem, so I made a mental note of it and decided it would be a good problem of the week.

This is actually no way near as bad a situation as it looks to a good player. I noticed in the thread that there was a variety of thought about deliberate fowling and possible safeties (the deliberate foul is a huge mistake – even a quite poor player should be able to run these three no matter where you leave the seven), but really potting the seven this shot has to be our main priority here.

However, we can actually combine the easiest route to a pot with a safety shot here, and the correct shot is to play the three cushion double into the middle pocket at the top of the diagram roughly like so (again apologies for the poor quality of the lines/angles):

Not only should you be playing for the middle, you should also be playing it:

a) Hard, so that if you miss the seven keeps going up the table off of the rail and leaves as much distance as possible between the cue ball and object ball;

and:

b) With top spin (and possibly a little side depending on the exact angle) with the intention of getting the cue ball to follow the seven's path until it is tight on the bottom rail – something which always makes your opponent's life much harder when striking the cue ball.

Good players are masters at not only spotting and going for interesting and complex shots when in trouble, but also playing them in such a way that if they do miss, they make their opponent's life as hard as possible. This is a great example of this in action, where an amateur skilled at doubles/banks and a pro may well make the seven a similar amount of times, but the pro will win the game many more times if they do miss, due to a little extra thought about where the cue ball and seven will end.

Solution: You should go for the three cushion bank shot, and aim to play it with top English/spin and at such a pace that you leave the white tight on the bottom rail and the seven high up the table.

Last edited by gregorio; 09-23-2010 at 09:45 AM.

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09-15-2010 , 02:52 PM

Chump Change

EuroBBVSuicideKing

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 13,005

Wait... We can play a combination right? (according to the handicap, that is)

09-15-2010 , 02:54 PM

Dying Actors

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,966

pocket the 9
/thread

edit, try to draw back into the 8 and sink that too. unless that would be considered unsportsmanlike due to your agreement not to billiard. i cant tell if thats okay to try or not.

if you think its not okay to hit the 8 in too, draw back into the 7, and move that further down.

Last edited by Dying Actors; 09-15-2010 at 03:04 PM.

09-15-2010 , 03:07 PM

Dying Actors

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,966

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chump Change

Wait... We can play a combination right? (according to the handicap, that is)

those must be out too, or this wouldnt be a problem

09-15-2010 , 03:08 PM

Chump Change

EuroBBVSuicideKing

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 13,005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dying Actors

What about the 7?

09-15-2010 , 03:12 PM

Dying Actors

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,966

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chump Change

What about the 7?

i dont understand the question

09-15-2010 , 03:38 PM

74Offsuit

old hand

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,383

He said no cannons or billliards, so we cant play onto the 8 or the 9.

No real way to play safe here so our only option is to try and sink the 7 right now. Best shot imo is to play the 7 off 3 cushions into the middle pocket at the top of the picture. My dad calls these shots 'cocked hat doubles'.

09-15-2010 , 03:53 PM

Dying Actors

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,966

Quote:

Originally Posted by 74Offsuit

why wouldnt you sink the 9 and have it respotted?

09-15-2010 , 04:10 PM

Chump Change

EuroBBVSuicideKing

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 13,005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dying Actors

why wouldnt you sink the 9 and have it respotted?

Ahh I see what you meant, disregard my question.

The question is will sinking the nine with a carom result in a foul according to the handicap? If not that's probably the best shot. Weird handicap.

09-15-2010 , 04:30 PM

#10

Dying Actors

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,966

no, youre already committing a foul by sinking the 9. im saying id shoot the 9 ball directly in. id just do a little extra damage and draw the cue ball off the 9 into either the 8, or into the 7, making his run out more difficult when he gets ball in hand.

09-15-2010 , 04:38 PM

#11

Harris

adept

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 887

Like others have mentioned, if making the 9 now is just a respot and not a foul, then billiarding in the 9 is a pretty obvious answer.

If making the 9 now is a foul, then I'm all for this: hit the 7 about 7/8 full, cutting it to your right, hard enough that if you miss the 3-railer in the side, either a) the 7 will go in the opposite corner, or b) the 7 will hit the opposite long rail and end up on the end rail. You want to hit this with extreme high and put a good stroke on it - the CB will hit the cushion, then curl up toward the end rail between the 8 and 9. Before you try this in a game, you should practice it to get the speed of stroke down, because you can easily end up accidentally forcing the CB into the 9.

09-15-2010 , 05:44 PM

#12

Chump Change

EuroBBVSuicideKing

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 13,005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dying Actors

Yeah, I know what you're saying, I just don't think it's clear sinking the nine 'legally' is a foul.

If we can sink both the 8 and 9 like you said and get them both spotted that' be pretty sexy.

09-15-2010 , 06:21 PM

#13

sixfour

should be called sevenfour

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 75,954

sinking the 9 or 8 directly here is a foul and doing so gives our bad but not ******ed opponent an easy clearance so that's out. i either play:

- hit the 7 off one cushion to try to pot it in the top left as we look, we're close enough that we should be able to judge the angle easily enough, or

- hit 7 hard in face, looks to be fairly close to the angle to send it in the top middle, might need to play it slightly off-centre to do so. if it misses it should leave something non-trivial, particularly if we play it so the cue ends near the 9 to hamper cueing

09-15-2010 , 09:52 PM

#14

ganstaman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 11,123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harris

If making the 9 now is a foul, then I'm all for this: hit the 7 about 7/8 full, cutting it to your right, hard enough that if you miss the 3-railer in the side, either a) the 7 will go in the opposite corner, or b) the 7 will hit the opposite long rail and end up on the end rail. You want to hit this with extreme high and put a good stroke on it - the CB will hit the cushion, then curl up toward the end rail between the 8 and 9.

09-15-2010 , 10:03 PM

#15

The Brickie

Carpal Tunnel

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11,396

Quote:

Originally Posted by 74Offsuit

My immediate thought was the cocked hat double. I don't, however, fully understand the consequences of pocketing the 8 or 9 here and just assumed we'd lose if we did so.

09-15-2010 , 11:22 PM

#16

Dying Actors

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,966

if you pocket the 9 straight in, its a foul, ball in hand, and the 9 ball is spotted.

i suggested this, thinking that the guy OP is playing was not good enough for this to be a simple run out. if i am wrong, then obv dont do that.

09-16-2010 , 04:46 AM

#17

wigan rl

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,474

I'm prob trying to skim the right hand side of the ball really thin leave the 7 in the position it's in and the cue ball in the middle of the bottom cushion

09-16-2010 , 06:10 AM

#18

wigan rl

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,474

Meh i'd leave the cue ball near the 9 ball if there not that good a pot to the top rail is not a problem if i leave it in the middle of the cushion they will just bank the 7 into the 8

So my last idea scrapped lol

09-16-2010 , 03:15 PM

#19

sickofants

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,801

A couple of ideas:

- Hit 7 ball slightly off full on the left hand side with top and right side spin. Aim is to get cue ball flush on the cushion between 8 and 9 ball and get the brown 7 as far up the table as possible, at least past the middle pockets. Cocked hat double is a bonus. The topspin allows you to give it a fair whack while keeping the cue ball under control, as it arcs as it hits the cushion. This leaves a tough long shot or double onto 8 or 9 ball. I see this has already been suggested, but I would put more emphasis on where the cue ball goes, as 7 ball on top rail (or in pocket) is very ambitious.

- Hit the brown 1/2 ball, lightly with extreme left hand side spin. The aim is to get the brown tight on the cushion between 8 ball and 9 ball, as far away from the 9 as you dare, with the line between cue ball and 7 ball parallel to the side cushions. The aim is to make a cannon impossible or very difficult because of the double kiss. It's not going to get us anywhere immediately, but ought to buy us an easier opportunity to achieve the aim of the first shot.

- Can't we just roll up to the brown ball, leaving the cue ball touching it at about 5 o clock on the diagram?

I think I prefer my 2nd option, although I'm certain you couldn't play it on a table with bad cloth/cushions.

09-20-2010 , 04:18 AM

#20

Ponder

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,353

try the 3rail bank in the side good chance to make it hit it with the speed to leave the cue on the bottom rail and the objectball on the opposite rail/middle of the table if u miss he should have tough shot