Did people have any thoughts on my proposal that to be the greatest you have to have either won in the finals or have not made it? I know this precludes a couple of people favorites for the top spot, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Since building a good jury and gaining their favor is by far the most important part of winning, I don't see how a 2nd place finisher can truly be GOAT. Even Boston Rob, the more I think of it.

Statistically it's a lot harder to get to the final than it is to win when you get there. There's so much luck in this game, it's often going to be almost impossible to make it to the end without treading on some toes, or completely giving up control and relying on pure luck. Getting to the end at all is the most important part of winning, because it doesn't matter how much the jury like you if you're one of them.

Having said that I can't think of any runner up who I would say is the greatest, though I'd say Stephen F and Russell are close to the top tier of players. Boston Rob was too much of a douchebag to most of the S8 jurors and pointlessly threw it away, he absolutely deserved to lose IMO.

Rob and Russell had basically the same end games with basically the same results. It's hard to separate the 2. Like I said the only difference I see is that Russell's fate was a bit more predictable.

The problem with the "get to the end and figure it out there" strategy is that the pay jump between 2nd in first is WAY bigger than the jump from 20th to 2nd, and the only difference between first and second is what the jury thinks of you.

I'm not suggesting you "figure it out from there", of course you have to try to avoid pissing people off and also manipulate who ends up on the jury and who goes to the end with you. I just think people tend to underestimate how hard it is to get to the end under your own control, rather than blind luck.

Re Rob/Russ- I think the difference is Rob was quite obnoxious to most of the jurors. Russell could expect a bitter anti-vote from Jaison, but wtf was the Galus problem with him? I still don't really know what he's supposed to have done to piss most of them off so much.

Just generally being abrasive and cocky. Not playing the idol at final 6 was among the most insulting moves to a jury in the history of the game. Maybe not his worst play (this had to be voting off Jaison), but likely the one that pushed anyone on the fence over the edge.

I am one of the most strategic minded survivor fans I know, and this move would have moved my vote to Natalie. It's horrendous both socially and strategically and is done just to show how much he thinks he dominated you. Blatant rub-ins do not make people want to give you a million.

Yeah I think Russell made a mistake in thinking the jury would respect him for "playing hard", and he played accordingly. He had said in one of the insider videos (pre-merge IIRC) that he fully intended to take Natalie to the end because the jury won't respect her for riding his coattails. Oops :/

Seriously. I mean Jaison rode coattails too, but he sucked and no one liked him. Natalie was pleasant, cared about people, and made friends with the Galus. I guess maybe editing threw us so we were QUITE so offended with the Natalie win, but from the viewers' perspective it was a colossal blunder.

I think if Russell can play without being TOO crazy he has a great shot this season now that he has the idol. People won't be as offended and HOPEFULLY he'll be smarter about who he brings to the end.

yawn, russell didnt make a mistake. it was painfully obvious to everyone who the best player was. didnt someone claim that a bunch of galus apologized for voting against him out of spite after the reunion?

Do you remember when they did the memory walk or whatever you call it? Russell was making snide comments about several of the jury. Lots of downside since Brett is obv going back to ponderosa to tell everyone and absolutely no upside.




P.S. I can't stand that walk through thing each season. Boring boring boring.

ship this one to russel. great player. there making it sound like hes getting knocked off next show but i dont believe.

for those who dont want to watch the preview

he says

Good quote from Probst. Sums up my thoughts on it.

The best player is completely capable of making game losing errors. Russel made a few.

I don't really believe the apology thing, but even if it were true his job is to know the tenor of the jury then not after the reunion. They probably apologized for it because Russell was crying and they felt bad :-P

Buyers remorse and a full season of episodes can change what someone was thinking at the time of the game. That's the reason they hold the vote BEFORE they leave the location, while the 39 days are still the only thing in their minds.

right, but if your only mistake was causing the jury to be admittedly irrational, i dont think you really could have done much better. c'est la vie.

Did Russell blow the trible council? Version 109.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

I don't really agree with this because you can't control how the jury votes. If Russell was such a dick, why did Shambo and John both vote for him? They were arguably the only jury members who had a legitimate reason to be bitter, yet they were both no-doubt locks to vote for Russell. The only real mistake he made was booting Jaison over Mick/Natalie, but the Brett "lock to win" factor made that a pretty unique F4 scenario that we'll probably never see again.

My thinking has always been: be the decision maker, get to the end, and let your resume speak for itself. There is definitely some strategy behind who you place on the jury, but if you focus too much on that, you start playing for jury placement instead of how to get to the end, and that's a bad idea. You should worry more about playing well and getting to the end than you should about how many friends you have on the jury, as you really don't know how certain people are going to vote.

well that was not the first reunion where some of the players stated they would have voted differently that night vs the actual vote. That's the game, its not a do over moment.

I don't like the fact that there are bitter juries, they are easily my least favorite aspect of the game. I think Russell was very good, for the most part and without a doubt the best player that season. That's why John voted for him. Shambo voted for him partially for that reason and partially because he empowered her to run over the tribe that shunned her.

I don't think any of the others considered Natalie the better player. They were just a jury who wanted to give the money to the person they considered the better person. I think it's your job as a power player to pick up on this vibe, and not send horribly bitter people like Jaison to Ponderosa.

I wish they somehow forced the jury to vote for the better player, but they don't. It's a part of the game and affects many seasons.

Just to add a little to this ^... John thought his tribe was a bunch of fools the whole time. Was attempting to play the game logically and, not surprisingly, based his voting logically. Shambo hated her tribe and might have voted opposite the way they were voting in any case, but she also had a personal connection with Russell (at least on her end of it). I've noticed that the outcast types can show a lot of loyalty to people who pull them in and play with them for while. It's almost like they aren't really giving winning much thought anyway, but having someone acknowledge them and 'play with them' for a while gains that person their respect and loyalty even after they stab them in the back.

I think it's short sighted to think that a bunch of randoms are going to understand and respect the game enough to make the right endgame decision no matter how a contestant conducts himself during the game. And even though I know everyone isn't privy to Russell's one on one camera sessions, I fail to believe Russell completely turns his arrogance off. Should it have mattered. Probably not. But again, bunch of randoms. Being liked and respected is generally going to matter.

Guys like Tom, JT, Yul, Earl, and Todd are playing with an edge. It's not hard to like them.

Solid number of posts, Soncy.

If it's true that you have to have either won or not made it to the final tribal to be GOAT, then coattail riders are candidates for GOAT as well as the coattail riding strategy possibly being the best strategy in all of Survivor. The problem is, you have to be a girl to pull that strategy off and the only girls who are even close to great are Parv and Steph, who didn't ride coattails at all.

Why are coattail riders candidates for GOAT? This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you look back at all the winners there aren't more than 2 or 3 total coattail riders. I mean what's the list? Natalie, Amber and maybe Jenna? The point of my statement is if you aren't good at building/wooing a jury you can't be considered best ever.