video of woo two years ago skating down a parking garage and dodging cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uonAEZb9rtk

a hidden immunity idol with no powers would be worthless. a few creative players (e.g. tony) could find a creative way to utilize it but well over 90% of players would just say what the heck and throw it away.

You realize the same people on ponderosa when kass asked if she would get votes versus woo, 4 of them said yes?

People just say what others want to hear. Its really easy to say I would have voted of you, when you know its never going to actually be put to the test.

I mean half of the tribal councils Spencer spent time arguing that Tony is the best player in the game and deserves the win. No doubt in my mind if they were against each othe, tony brings this up.

I doubt this. I think a vast majority of players will just say its a real idol and ear it or whatever, but thats how creative they will get. people like tony may be able to pull more bluffs with it(Like if I was on my first season and got a purely fake idol I might do something like try to play it before the votes. Like interrupt Jeff when he says we are about to vote and ask to play my idol, just to get people scrambling)

they should have an idol or prize where you get to take someone else's food and eat it

Think about the players who generally find HIIs. There's enough creative players in that group. Also, it shouldn't be a guarantee that it's used well or at all.

I respect the fact that Kass had fun playing and that she doesn't back down when people treat her like crap (because she treats everyone like crap). And I think it was very interesting having her on the show and showing her insights. It was an example of how someone can be unlikeable without intending to be. Mostly she was a lot dumber than she realized, had an inflated ego, and a warped perception of reality. At first I didn't think she was a malicious person and that her intentions were just jumbled with all her flawed theories about the world and insecurities. But her being so completely non-plussed about her reception at Ponderosa makes it more likely that she enjoys trolling people.

I really liked the way Spencer approached Tony at F4 with a very good argument and then, sensing that he hadn't done enough, took it further at Tribal Council by making more promises. I don't know if it was discussed earlier in the thread, but it seems like a mistake by Tony not to vote Woo there.

I don't realize Kass had four people saying she had their votes at all. I realize that SHE said she had four votes. Which people have confirmed that they said that?

And don't get me wrong, I am open to the possibility that some people might have felt inclined to vote for Kass over Woo because they felt like she did more to direct her game than he did. But everything I saw with my own eyes supports the idea that Kass didn't have any jurors respecting her game or her person. Despite what they may have said, or what she may have perceived they were saying to the contrary.

Their reception for Spencer was markedly different than their reception for Kass. It's easier (for me) to believe that they were speaking truth about rooting for him.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. You hate Spencer. Given, I like both Tony AND Spencer, I gotta believe I'm the more objective on this matter, but that doesn't mean I'm right. We are discussing our reads on the jurors. I'm not moving, you aren't moving. It's okay. Ultimately we don't really know how they would have voted.

Its obviously not a mistake if Woo is taking him. If Woo isn't taking him then its much closer and depends on whether the probability of Spencer losing f3 immunity vs Tony/Kass is higher than the probability of Tony winning it vs Kass/Woo

Voting Spencer out the right play all the way in the same fashion that taking Kass to the finals is the right play. These decisions not difficult or close imo.

Even though Tony knew he had a shot at selling Woo, and even though he managed to do it, I still don't think I can give Tony credit for thinking Woo could take him instead of Kass. It makes no sense!

If I were in Tony's shoes I might not have even tried to convince Woo. It would be like, I don't want to insult your intelligence or mine (since only an idiot would be unable to see how completely obvious Woo's choice was), good game man, how much does third place pay?

In a rational world once you vote out Spencer, Tony's only chance to make the finals is to win the final immunity. Which puts Tony in a terrible spot.

Tony didn't know the world was irrational when he voted Spencer (or did he?).

kass's reception at ponderosa was painful and cruel. yes, kass was a bitch at times and a terrible player, but she didn't deserve that.

His argument was really good and I liked it. I didn't like his 'promises' at tribal. They were over the top and BS and I don't think helped his case. It made his previous sensible argument less believable by spouting out those additional vexatious claims.

As for Tony, he probably knew there was a decent chance Woo would do the honorable thing and take him to the end. So long as Kass doesn't win immunity he makes f2. Whereas if he boots Woo, he def doesn't make f2 if Spencer wins, and it's unclear who Kass would bring to the end.

He obviously did, that's exactly the sales pitch he gave to Woo.

lol tony did not know that woo would take him. you could see his reaction when spencer told him that if spencer got voted out, that tony would be voted out next. the wheels were turning. this was news to tony, and he believed it.

I agree he didn't know that Woo would take him, but he must've assumed there was a decent chance.

This. Even if Spencer does keep his promise, which is doubtful, Tony never beats him in a f2.

I' m wondering if Kass doesn't win final 4 immunity, does Woo go to rocks in order to make sure she doesn't make final 3, if Spencer presents that argument to Woo? If he doesn't want her to be in the final 2, he really shouldn't want her in a final 3, right?

Yes to the bold. She was also one of the least self-aware people to play survivor. She should take a peak at something called Johari's Window (google it if you are not familiar but are interested).

It is rather troubling that she is a trail lawyer, as it would appear she does not assess her own weaknesses well and she is reliant on juries. Wonder if has has any insight to how she comes across to juries. My guess is that it is not as she may think.

It wasn't that he didn't want Kass, he wanted to keep his honour and integrity with Tony.

So it had nothing to do with him feeling she was unworthy of making the final 2? Because I'm pretty sure he said something along those lines to her in his answer to her jury question.

BTW, I believe Tony winning was the best outcome possible for the season and it really isn't that close.

Ok, I'm sure I'll take some heat for the following Tony-bashing, but here goes.

I think almost every Tony fan here is giving him way too much credit.

1. It seems like a lot of people saw the show this way: Tony makes an appeal to Woo to vote of Kass, Woo buys it, and thus Tony demonstrates some sort of awesome ability to connect with people and tell them what they want to hear.

I think that's really spinning it to make Tony look good.

Here's what actually happened: As I recall, Tony made two major arguments to Woo. He talked about loyalty and he (and this is important) talked about how Kass would be a *tougher* final two opponent.

When Woo is later repeated asked "Why the **** did you take Tony?", he does not give either of those reasons. He says many times that he picked Tony because Tony was a better player and deserved it more. There are some references to loyalty, but he makes it very clear that that his main reason is that Tony is the more worthy opponent.

This is, in fact, exactly the opposite of one of the major arguments that Tony made. Basically Woo was saying he picked Tony because Tony would be the tougher challenge. Half of Tony's argument was that Woo should take him because Kass would be a tougher challenge.

So, I don't really think that we can give Tony that much credit for convincing Woo. Woo picked him overwhelmingly for a reason that was unrelated (and actually the opposite) of what Tony was telling him.

Basically, Tony just luckboxed and Woo is an idiot. We knew Woo wasn't exactly sharp, no one could possibly anticipate what a massive idiot he would be. Not even Tony. So we can't give Tony credit for Woo's idiocy.

2. All this talk of Tony being among the survivor greats is hilarious. This guy is the consummate button-masher. He makes a lot of big moves that were unnecessary and neutral EV at best. Also his attempts to solve any sort of immunity puzzle are essentially literal button-mashing.

He basically wins this season because of two moronic moves: the Kass flip and Woo taking him to F2. The Kass flip was idiocy, but if anyone gets credit for it it's Trish. And Woo is just so ******ed that there are no words.

One skill that he does appear to have is an ability to find idols (IIRC he found one without a clue). I'll give him that.

In the end I'd say he is an average winner. He's flashy and makes for good TV, but he is far from great and got extremely lucky.


Despite all of the above, I still am glad he won rather than Woo or Kass.

The week prior, when Woo Spencer and Kass planned to take out Trish, they made what seemed like a semi-solid pact with each other to be the final 3. At the time, Woo had seemed ready to finally try to take out Tony, but because of his Immunity Idol that they knew he would play (still at final 5 here) then he wasn't an option, so they took out Trish.

But it seemed like the plan was to take out Tony next, but he really pushed that special idol that night at F5 tribal, so it seemed like that was now out of the picture.

I'm surprised we really didn't see that much deliberating amongst Spencer Kass and Woo about the special idol. It just seemed like they accepted it straight up that Tony could not be voted out at 4 bc of it.

So if Tony wins Immunity at 4, Spencer is still the target.

BTW if I'm Spencer , I actually try to convince Woo (and Kass, why not) to vote out Tony. I know he's voting for me anyway, but if his Special Idol is bs, he goes home. Even if I can just get one of them to vote Tony, then it'll be a tie and I'll have to make fire.

If we figure that there's a 50% chance that the idol can and will be used, then
50% chance I go home
50% chance that either I have to make fire to stay OR Tony goes home.

As Spencer played it, he was looking at best case scenario having to make fire vs. Woo. I like my chances the other way.

Except that everyone knew that Spencer was the favourite against anyone in the final tribal and he would also be the favourite to win the final immunity challenge. The line he took was optimal.