If everyone looked at it like you did the game would be a lot less fun to watch. In the middle of Uggla's slump, everytime he put it in play, he was making the fielders work hard for his out. If he hadn't been I wouldn't have stuck with him. I hated him a year ago, I still couldn't bring myself to like him much back in April when I first was having to see him in a Braves uni, but I gained a lot of respect for him and really started to become a fan of his when he was giving it 110% offensively and defensively while batting waaay below the Mendoza line in May and June.

Trotting down the line on a hard grounder hit right at the first baseman is one thing but these are not the plays I'm talking about with Heyward. It's the grounders to short or 2nd where if he hustles and they make a good throw they'll get him by a couple of steps but if there's a bobble, or a misgrip, or laziness on their part it might turn into a bang bang play. Plays like the one you must have been talking about when you said this... (and it hasn't been a one time thing.)

There's no such thing as a sure out until the ump makes the call. You're getting paid a lot of damn money to play baseball and help your team win, you're doing a pretty ****ty job at it lately, is it really asking too much to bust your ass down the line every time?

Yes, I know that not every player hustles down the line, players that are making a helluva lot more money than Heyward, but A) that's no excuse and B) you're 22 years old and can run alot faster than most of the guys who aren't hustling down the line and C) those guys probably aren't position players who are batting .220 and if they are, they're probably getting ready to be released.


I feel like these are probably similar excuses to what he's giving his coaches. Last year, he was where he is now, and it was fixed after about 2 or 3 weeks. This year, what? They didn't recommend that he change it? They said, "well last year it was killing you but maybe this year you should give it a longer chance, maybe it will provide you with more power (because God knows that's all that matters) maybe you need more healthy AB's before you can give it up???"



These things so far just mean that he could be an above avg fielder. Just like the fact that him having good power and a good eye doesn't make him above average offensively.

Right now, he has good range but doesn't consistently take good angles or get good jumps, he has a good arm but doesn't have the best accuracy, has good power but isn't driving the ball, has a good eye but is missing the good pitches he gets.

I want him to be great and I think he can be an MVP caliber player one day, but right now, he's missing in almost every area. His defense could be very good one day, a gold glove future wouldn't surprise me, but right now it's around average... which is far better than his offense.

I'm not saying that he should be sent back to the minors... yet. You don't wanna risk ****ing up his head/confidence but there's definitely a point where you have to consider that leaving him up to continue struggling is going to be worse.

I'm not a big Fredi fan, he's pissed me off too many times to count this year, but I think that he's handling Heyward's situation right for now. He's giving him some time off, Constanza is playing really well, but it's probably not gonna last very long, so when either Constanza cools down or Heyward gets hot with a big pinch hit game winner or a few hits on the days he does start, Heyward settles back into the starting or atleast platooning roll.

It's getting scary though, if Heyward doesn't turn things around fairly soon, he probably needs to go down to the minors, you don't want to leave him up until his avg is sub .200 and "booos" start slowly growing louder. I don't think that Francour has ever had the kind of potential that Heyward has but you don't wanna see Heyward in the same boat a few years down the road. Trying to rediscover his groove while wearing a Met's or Royal's uniform.

So wait, which race was I stereotyping, Cubans or African Americans??? Or in that same ****ed up ****** dictionary of yours is there just white people and everybody else?

Btw, glad to see that now I'm not just a racial stereotyper I'm flat out a racist.

I'd respond to the rest but you're a ****ing idiot, I'll pass.



Oh yeah, just so you don't claim that I was avoiding the question because I didn't have an answer, because obviously I think every white person is awesome and every... non-white person(?) is lazy... Adam LaRouche, Bob Wickman, Pete Orr... I could go on.

LBTC,

Defense is something that has historically been incorrectly assessed for years. The error stat in of itself is a bad stat, and one that provides very little value. For example, what if Prince Fielder played LF? He'd likely make almost no errors in the traditional sense because he has good hands and can probably catch a flyball. Does that make him a better OFer than someone that makes 3-4 errors at the same position? Most definitely not. What about the ranging SS that gets to 100 more balls a year than the stiff white guy. Surely he's going to rack up a lot more errors as those added balls he's getting to are also likely going to be more difficult plays. Measuring someone's OF defense based on their number of assists is also very futile. The main reason for this is that baserunners just don't take extra bases on OFers that have good to great arms. Now, that is valuable (very valuable), but is that reflected anywhere in the assist stat? No, it's not.

So, instead of using those archaic methods to assess defense there have been other metrics created. The metric that I think makes the most sense in assessing OF defense over a somewhat small sample size is DRS. DRS is the stat for total defensive runs saved. To me, it makes sense that is one of the more all encompassing stats when assessing OF defense since that's the name of the game. This stat accounts for all the times a runner doesn't go first to third on Heyward, all the times Martin gets a slightly bad jump and the ball falls in front of him for a single, all the times a runner doesn't tag up from third on flyball to Heyward, and even all the times Heyward misreads a flyball that falls in the gap and how all of that effects the amount of runs they allow.

So, in looking at this stat just for this year Heyward's DRS is 10 (ironically he also had 10 last year in 500 more innings so there is a good chance you could actually suggest he's improving greatly in the field), while Prado's is 0. Zero. He's not hurting us defensively in LF, but he's not doing anything close to Heyward.

In terms of offense, they both are below average at runs created per plate appearance (which IMO is a pretty important/telling stat), with Prado's 97 wRC+ (100 is league avg) and Heyward's 96 wRC+. Consider that with the fact Heyward undoubtedly played injured with a shoulder problem for at least 4 weeks before actually going on the DL (while Prado was immediately forced to go on the DL once his staph infection was discovered for contamination issues) and you'll see that it's very likely that a slumping, but healthy Heyward is a much better option in the OF than a healthy and normal producing Martin Prado.

Now, another thing to consider is that since Heyward has come off the DL (and been close to healthy) he hasn't even produced that bad offensively. He hit .265/.350/.368 in June after he came off the DL and .211/.283/.411 in July. Sure, July wasn't great, but it's one bad month. Nothing to worry about at all, and nothing to cause you to actually platoon/replace/whatever you want to call this Constanza experiment. If we got worked up over one bad month then Jonny Venters would be our closer, Julio Lugo would be starting every day at 2B, Hinske would be our starting first baseman, and Tim Hudson would be the long man in the bullpen. Let's let the great players work themselves out of whatever it is that they are in. That's part of the game, and Heyward needs to be playing.

I stopped reading this argument halfway through.

However, it is beyond clear to me that the regulars itt are absolutely correct and the newb is wrong. Almost to the point of saying GTFO, we don't want you here anymore.

LBTC,

Regarding the situational hitting argument:

Taking any approach other than "drive the ball or walk" under any set of baserunner circumstances is going to be at the detriment of the team's total runs scored over the course of a season. For example, to actually want Heyward to change his approach with runners on first and third and one out to lift the ball and hopefully get a sacrifice fly is going to actually lower the amount of expected runs you earn in that situation (assuming he could even alter his approach to hit a fly ball). To put it in a poker playing perspective, while trying to hit a fly ball there might be +EV it's far from optimal. The most +EV play there is to go with the "drive the ball or walk" approach as it will result in more runs being produced out of that scenario in the long run. At times you get a fly ball from that approach that scores the run anyways! Sometimes, you get a double that not only scores the run, but also puts you in another great scoring opportunity! Sometimes, he hits a homerun and you get 3 runs! I concede, however, that sometimes he will ground into a double play to end the inning. Sometimes he will strikeout and then Alex Gonzalez will strikeout right after him and we won't score. But I guarantee that taking the "drive the ball or walk" approach will result in the most runs scored in the course of a season.*

*The one instance where it might make sense to just try and lift the ball for a sacrifice fly is if Michael Bourn is on 3rd and is the winning run in a tie game in the 9th (or later). Since his run actually ends the game, it doesn't matter what other scoring opportunities are set up with Heyward's at bat, although even then I'm not sure actually changing a hitter's approach is going to result in the run scoring more often.

As for work ethic argument:

You're probably wrong. Obviously can't say for sure, but there has been literally no reason to suggest he has a poor work ethic. Short term results are never going to be an indication of work ethic one way or the other.

As for setting up too far from the plate:

You're wrong. He's set up the same place almost his entire career. Would he benefit from moving in? Maybe, but I'd imagine he'd actually just get eaten up inside as he is already somewhat susceptible to the inside fastball as it is.

As for Jose Constanza being any sort of upgrade over Heyward even at Heyward's absolute worst:

I just don't see it. What do people see from Constanza? I just see a guy who makes a lot of weak contact, runs very fast, doesn't walk, has the least amount of power of any player on the 25 man roster, and has a weak arm. Don't get me wrong, I love to see him do well, but to think it's sustainable in any fashion is being blinded by ignorance. That's not to say he can't be a serviceable 4th OFer (although losing McLouth really hurt us in reality), but he shouldn't be playing every day, and especially shouldn't be playing over Jason Heyward, who, even at his worst, is our 2nd best OFer.

LBTC,

Do you think Ichiro is a great defensive RFer? He averages approx. 10 DRS a season.

Jason Heyward, so far, averages approx. 10 DRS a season.

Trust me, the stats say Jason Heyward is a good defensive RFer.

Heyward! my boy! just went yard!!

I'm loving Bourne's speed.

Cantstandsya goes deep for the b2b hrs

Wow

Maybe George isn't bad after all, 2-3 so far

Believe me bud, after my first trip to the 2+2 Braves thread, I'm not looking to make this my new home for all Braves related discussion.


Yes, Ichiro is a great defensive right fielder. Jason Heyward is no Ichiro in right field. It's not surprising to me that someone who is claiming that situational hitting is a myth is throwing out all arguments except for the one that backs up his argument in another area. Maybe I've been missing some situation where runs are saved, maybe his offensive struggles have clouded my view of what he's been doing offensively this year, I hope that's the case and as I've said several times, I hope he ends up capturing all of his potential. So I'll concede the Jason Heyward average vs. slightly above average debate.


The statement about situational hitting being a myth though, it makes me wonder if you're just the type who will throw out any statement necessary to defend their argument or in this case their guy.

I'm pretty sure every player, coach, GM, scout, announcer, etc in baseball would fully disagree with you that situational hitting is a myth. If not all, atleast 99%.

For example, Prado last inning, great example of situational hitting. Bourn is on 2nd with 0 outs, a hit or a HR would be great but mainly, the situation calls for one thing... advance the runner. He doesn't have to drive the ball, he doesn't have to necessarily have to hit the ball hard, he just needs to hit a ball to the right side and get the runner in. As long as he hits it to the right side, it's mission accomplished a high percentage of the time... anything beyond advancing the runner is just a bonus.

Just out of curiosity, for those of you who want to go with the screw the noob and support the familiars approach across the board... are you taking this so far as to agree that situational hitting is a myth?

Btw, Tdomeski, I do appreciate the fact that you're being civil and putting some content to our debate here as opposed to going the "you're new, I'm scared, gtfo" or "you're opinion is different than mine, you must be a racist" route that most of these guys are taking.



Oh yeah, good job Minor, ul at the end!
Good job Heyward!
Good job Constanza!
Go Braves!

Damn, weird collision there, hope Constanza is ok... even if he is new and therefore scary and terrible.

Again, you must think he's a ******, and by all reports he's not. He wouldn't intentionally sacrifice his overall productivity for more HRs. He's tried to add power to his already insane overall package and so far it's been a net negative, but he's the one in the cage every day working on his swing and I trust him to do whatever he thinks would be more productive (which is where him not being a ****** comes in)

And yet as domeski has pointed out according to the stats (and to everyone else who's watched him play) he's well above average defensively. You're either making **** up or seeing what you want to see.

loool

I have to say, you are an amazing troll.

Chippa

Chipper loves the Mets.

nice Chipper..

but he seriously looks done to me. He hasn't taken a good swing yet since he's come back I don't think.

As much as it pains me, I agree. And I doubt he comes back next season. His legs are shot.

huuuge play by Uggla

And there it is. Good win. lolMets.

Chippppa

Guys I'm 44 yoa and ultra-old obv so may have lost track but think that's the millioneth series win vs the Mets in my lifetime. They are our Georgia Tech (and the poster above me is not allowed to say they are our Georgia).

I like how we SEC rivals can all share a common goal in rooting for the Braves

i don't know what happened here, but calling the guy a racist for questioning jason's work ethic is pretty low class. if would be pretty easy to make the argument that ur the actual racist for interpreting his comments like that, but i think every can agree this thread is better off w/o exploring that topic any further

as far as jason's value as a defensive outfielder goes, as tdomeski pointed out, its difficult to measure defensive value using standard metrics, but it quickly turns to an argument of the validity of advanced metrics when u start trying to quantify subjective happenstances.

i think jason is slightly above average in the field, but only because of his natural athletic ability. i dont think he gets particularly good jumps on some balls, and his arm is strong but can be inaccurate.

lets face it - he is having an awful season. every time he used to slump people would always whisper that hes been playing hurt for a while and so on. its time for the excuses to stop. do you really think hes having a positive impact on offense right now?

im the biggest chipper fanboy there is, and i have to begrudgingly agree as well. he looks like an old man out there. he's so slow out of the box and i grimace every time he takes a swing. based on what hes said in the past, hes not going to wait for somebody else to tell him its time to hang up the cleats

Yeah TFG is a good guy despite his obvious handicap of being a gator lover.