Yes for sure optimal is optimal. I was just visualizing a heads up

But do you agree the best players in the world happen to be exploitive ? Or am I not up to date ?

Tough I imagine they are very interested about the gto theory.

I do and I have never really argued otherwise.

I would assume most use theory as a foundation for learning what exploitation to use when making decisions.

Maybe I have bias because I always was big fan of phil ivey. But not many of his plays I see would be categorize GTO. Except his overbet with full house TTTxx...

Phil Ivey used to crush nosebleeds online, but the players in those games that studied theory found ways in which he was unbalanced. They no doubt exploited his imbalances from time to time, but merely by playing as close to "GTO" as they could, they would still beat him. I presume you've seen Ivey's online graph post 2015. Games would form around Ivey in 2016, because - to all intents and purposes - Ivey became the fish.
Against weaker - more exploitable - opponents (in live games especially) Ivey presumably still crushes.

I didn't insult you... You crazy dude.

Yeah KKong, the best players are all exploitative. They will understand GTO, but they will know to avoid it like the plague.

This was a good post Heehaw... Arty is a micro stakes player mate. I've explained this stuff to him 100 times but he cant comprehend it. Try to explain it to him yourself if you like, teach him how to use his image to deceive his opponents for extra cash. It'd be good for someone else to take the heat for a change, and perhaps a new perspective will help him learn.

I'm more interested in you good sir. I do remember you but my memory isn't what it used to be. So far in this thread you've shown that you understand how to use your perceived range in some way. You also realise that you can use your perceived range against weak players. Which is against the grain somewhat. Your perceived range is Level Three and before I came along everyone seemed to think that you can only use this Level against competent players... It almost feels like I've taught you myself... And I can't help but wonder how far your understanding goes. Do you know how to pre-adjust?

I highly doubt I said anything in my post that he didn't already know and comprehend. In this instance I think it was a simple miscommunication between you two.

Summary of your posting history:



I kid, but I really do think of that scene every time you talk about levels!

The very weakest players aren't thinking about what you have, but most bad (including very bad) players are. They're putting you on some kind of range even if it's blurry and even if they're not explicitly thinking about ranges. In fact it's a weighted range, because it's not like they're counting combos.

There are times when I think my table image is X, I think they'll act in Y manner as a result, and therefore I'll act in Z manner to exploit Y. Is that what you mean?

It's not miscommunication. He is clearly mixing up the perceived range with his actual range. He still wont be able to work it out now. Ask him.

The very weakest players out there aren't giving you a range like we do, you are right, it is not accurate, blurry is a good word for it (I think I used the same word myself). Regardless of how inaccurate or rudimentary it is, he is still putting us a hand/range of hands and so we can still deceive him like we would anyone.

... Soooo, I notice you're attempting to discredit the logic, which is exactly what a CogD sufferer would do. It is pretty clear to me that you are suffering from it due to something that I've said in the past. I do suspect you have heard me speak of pre-adjusting before, and, as you clearly are not aware of what it is, I do suspect that this is where your CogD comes from. I'm not sure yet though. Both of your posts were almost perfect.

I'll explain it to you. Lets see what you say...

When you bluff, you have to pretend to hold a hand/s that are in your perceived range. You understand this much I'm sure. If you're pretending to hold a flush and the opponent has already disregarded this from your range, he will not believe the bluff and will not fold... Now... There are times when we benefit from the opponent already having had disregarded the flush from our range - When we do truly hold one! This is pre-adjusting. To do it, you have convince the opponent that you do not hold the hand you really hold so that when future changes materialise he will have already disregarded your actual holding before you even make your action. You get the opponent to remove flush draws from your range before the flush hits. Then, when the flush hits, he thinks that you are bluffing and you rinse him.

Thoughts?

What stakes do you play yadoula?

I'm surprised we haven't already had this conversation BrokenStars... Hmm... I cant help but suspect a trap. I'm guessing that no matter what I say you wont be happy.

I made $200,000 or so from 6 max cash games over a couple of years a few years ago. I was taking 8bbs from the $200 games at 888 and was taking stabs at the $400 games when I decided to stop playing because I stopped enjoying taking money from weaker players. I decided to teach those same people instead. For the karma... I am not coaching at this exact moment, I've been concentrating all my efforts on writing a revolutionary theory book which teaches "How All Players Think Through their Plays".

So there it is. Hit me. What you got?... Hmmm... Before you say whatever you are going to say to try to discredit my logic, why dont you show us your credentials? How much you made Brokenstars???

Are you playing currently?

Great job by the way.

Where in my post was I trying to discredit anything?

I've seen you use the word before, but for the most part I don't actually read your posts, I just skim them. Your tone is always that of a troll, so it's hard to take you seriously. If your book ever comes out, I might buy it for the lulz and the off chance you might know something about exploiting that I don't. If you're a tenth as brilliant as you think you are, it could be a worthwhile book.

Is this definition correct? Pre-adjust: to adjust without waiting for Villain to adjust (or ideally at the same time), in anticipation of Villain's adjustment.

You don't have to unless you're exploiting. But in the games I play, I'm always exploiting, so I'm with you so far.

I'm not sure I follow. Would an example be like, you semi-bluff your flush draws at the first few available opportunities, so then Villain will expect you to in the future, so then you plan to play your next flush draw passively and then stack Villain if it hits? And vice versa, if you've played some draws passively and Villain thinks you never semi-bluff, next time you'll semi-bluff and double up if it hits? Was playing it the same way the first few times premeditated or can it be coincidental, if it's to count as pre-adjusting? Like, I don't always semi-bluff, but suppose the first 4 times I had a flush draw, I happened to semi-bluff, not premeditated. If I were aware of this and thought, "Next time I'll trick them with a passive line!", would that be pre-adjusting or just plain adjusting?

I'm still not falling for it lol... Searching for dirt eh... I haven't played professionally these last few years. But I have spent as much time as I used to spend playing studying instead. I am looking to get back to the tables now.

Falling for what?

Yeah I dont know what I was thinking, you're like a beacon of compliments and confidence, obviously not trying to belittle me nor my logic in the slightest.

You're getting closer with your descriptions of pre-adjusting.
- You don't wait for the opponent to adjust, you make the opponent remove the hand that you currently hold from your perceived range so that in the future you can take advantage of his misunderstanding. Calling AA oop instead of 4betting pre-flop, this is pre-adjusting. You are making the opponent take the hand from your perceived range so that in the future you can take advantage of his mistake.
- Your last example is just plain adjusting, as you suggested. Pre-adjusting only works within the boundaries of one hand. You are trying to make the opponent remove the hand that you hold from your range. And, as the ranges are all reset at the beginning of the hand it doesn't transfer over.

You learn what is in your perceived range by looking to the past and following your image in the eyes of the opponent.
You can then make a bluff by pretending to hold a hand that is in your perceived range, that you dont actually hold. To make this bluff you need to consider how you're opponent will react to your range in the future, after you have made your play.
Pre-adjusting is move made using the future-present. We set up our perceived range on this move, so that when we come to make our next move we have a perceived range that we have designed ourselves.

And that's all there is to Level Three. Each Level is split into these same groups. Past, present, future and future-present. If you can understand how to use the future present at Level Three you are ready to move onto the next Level.

Your innocent tone

Okay.

If you start playing again you should create a PGC so interested people can follow your progress.

Lol OK mate... I was thinking about writing a blog to promote the book. I might stream instead. Whats a PGC?

I want to play in the biggest games now. If book sales dont do amazingly well I will try climbing all the way up. Those 10k tables at Stars are calling to me. I was good when I left, and back then I didn't understand nearly as much as I do now, so I myself am interested to see how well I will do. I think I'll do real well. I feel like a samurai who just spent four years in a cave meditating. I'll blatantly do better than I did before. I do need a stack though!

BTW HeeHaw, I just realised that pre-adjusting can be done over multiple hands, but the adjustment would have to be deliberate. To pre-adjust you dont just react to your perceived range, you design it.

How would you design your perceived range / table image in the course of one hand, especially when playing online? Wouldn't it have to be over multiple hands?

Nah, you can do it during an individual hand easy. And when realise how to do it you can rinse the **** out of aggressive low level opponents.

I opened pre-flop, I'm oop against a low level reg, and the board comes KT2ss. I hold A3s.

The villain will think that if I hold the nuts flush draw I am extremely likely to Cbet this board, or perhaps Check/raise. To build a pot etc etc. And so, instead of making a Cbet or C/R, I can instead check/call. The villain will think that my range is some kind of weak K or strong T. He wont suspect me to take this line with the nuts flush draw. We have made the opponent remove the hand we hold from our perceived range. Pre-adjustment complete. Easy.

You will then find that you can continue to play in this hand as though you have the weak K and can make a bluff on the river to fold out his weak value. Or, you could hit your suited card and then pretend to be turning your hand into a bluff. The opponent will realise that you clearly dont have the flush and he will quite often raise like a nutter pretending to have it himself.

Pre-adjusting gives you way more board coverage. You can get the folds from your perceived range when your draw doesn't hit. And you can get additional profit from your actual hand when you do hit. By separating the actual hand from the perceived range, you hit or are perceived to have hit more often than if they were one in the same.

You just now realized this? I hope the book isn't already at the publishers. That would be an embarrassing conversation. "Hey, you know my book that contains the perfect exploitative strategy? I need to make an edit."