Voluntary Posting Blinds

[this is my first post on 2+2 (actually my first post on any forum)]

I started playing poker about 6 months ago and right from the start one thing that has bugged me on poker live training videos has been when the tutor says "i've just voluntarily posted the big blind for the sake of the video, but you should always wait for the big blind to come around, otherwise your just throwing away money."

Well I disagree. I think there are 4 good reasons for voluntary posting a big blind under the right circumstances.

(The circumstances are that you are at a full 9 handed table and you can post your blind from the CO)

1) Simple math
If you wait for the big blind to hit you then for 1 entire orbit you pay 1.5 big blind and get to see 9 hands, that's 1.67 BB per hand. If you pay a voluntary blind then you pay 1 BB for 6 hands, that's 1.67BB per hand (note that you only get to see 6 hands out of the orbit as by the time the BB hit you, you are in the same position as waiting for the blind). So there is no loss of equity from posting the voluntary big blind from the CO. If your playing in a 10 max game then there is a slight gain in equity.

Discussion point:
If you pay the blind from the CO then you miss playing from the Bu in that orbit and the button is arguably the most profitable position on the table. This is true but is countered by the fact that you don't have to play the blinds, two of the least profitable positions. I would say that these roughly cancel.

2) Deception within the hand
If you post the blind from the CO then you are offered a unique opportunity to deceive your opponents. If you wake up with a monster, say AA, slow playing becomes a more powerful option as checking your blind looks even weaker than flatting.

3) Stealing
A unique situation arises when the action fold around to you once you have posted your blind from the CO in that stealing becomes more profitable. A normal steal attempt risks 3BB in order to win 1.5BB i.e. 0.5:1. After posting the blind from the CO the ratio improves to 1.25:1 (there is 2.5BB in the pot and if you make a stadard raise to 3x then your only risking 2BB to win 2.5). Even if you make a larger raise, say to 4x, in order to offer the BB less attractive pot odds the ratio is 0.83:1 which is still more profitable than a standard steal.

4) Table image
If your sitting at a table and a new comer, who you've never played before, sits down and posts his blind straight away there is a good chance your going to right click on his avatar and click "player notes" then type "voluntarily posts blind", then maybe you'll even label him with a colour that codes for fish (guilty to proven innocent). Well why note abuse peoples first impressions by posting a blind from the CO and getting labeled as a fish? seems like a good idea to me. Some people are going to play looser against you for a bit and your more likely to get paid off for the first few hands (until you show your vastly superior skill).

There are my reasons for posting a voluntary blind from the CO at a full, full ring table. Please leave your thought

You need to consider that when you voluntarily post a blind that if someone acts before you get the opportunity to check your blind they will most likely raise an extra big blind than they normally would, just the same as you would add a big blind to your standard raise if someone had limped in. For example, the standard raise pre flop is usually 3 big blinds. With an extra big blind in the pot, a 3BB raiser may raise to 4BB to account for your voluntary blind.

If you have the intention of stealing after you voluntarily post the blind, every one checks to you and you raise, what if the button sees this opportunity to do the same and 3 bets with position?

As for waking up with monsters like AA after voluntarily posting a big blind, how often will these hands actually occur? Your odds of being dealt AA specifically are 220:1



You have a point about being possibly labelled as a fish when posting the blind voluntarily. The downside is, that by voluntarily posting the blind, you might as well be in the actual big blind position where you are forced to put the same amount in the pot with no gurantee of a playable hand. From all other positions, you can fold and it costs you nothing when you receive a weak hand.

I'm not sure I agree with your math but I just skimmed. Interesting. I def agree with the image argument tho. In a live game I usually post in late position for two reasons. One is my image. I want to appear To be the guy who doesn't care about money or every decision being plus ev. Secondly a live game runs slow as hell so I truly don't want to wait 6 hands or fifteen minutes to play. And if I did I would look nitty to my opponents. If its less than 3 hands ill wait. Online I always wait. Why wouldn't I? (Unless your math is correct)

Nice first post ever

This concept is not unheard of: I already heard about it and it does make sense.

This is not how I would do the math: it's not 100% strict, but yet it looks like a fine argument for supporting the fact posting the blind on the CO is never a terrible decision.

The way I'd do it is something like this: if my winning rate from the CO is 20bb/100 and my vpip there is 25% then by voluntarily posting the blind I'm gonna lose 100bb/100 on 75% of the hands and gain 20bb/100 on 100%, thus I'm actually losing 55bb/100 by posting that blind (this is not 100% strict either since game flow will change because of the blind I posted), but for sure I won't do any worse than that if I can adapt well to the situation.
So, the question becomes, will my average gains from the HJ and the other earlier positions up to UTG compensate those 55bb/100 I'm losing by posting the blind? If so, I can do it profitably.

But you have to pay the blind from the CO, so if the 2 things roughly cancel you are left at a disadvantage

Yes, since you already put a blind in the pot before looking at your cards, your top range will get more action and you will end up gaining a little more with your best hands so your win rate will go slightly up.
I would look at this as a bonus rather than basing my decision on it, since it's very difficult to estimate.

This is not totally correct imo. If you'd normally make a std 3x raise when it's folded to you, you will still do the same and the disadvantage of having posted the blind will just disappear. But it will only happen when it's folded to you and you have a hand in your opening range. This is taken into consideration if you do the math as suggested above, and this effect is strictly computable, a qualitative analysis is not useful.
What's true is that you will be able to open up your range since hands you couldn't play profitably will now be profitable given the blind you already posted. This will slightly lower the penalty for posting the blind from the -100bb/100 when you hold such a hand. Again it's not easily quantifiable and I would look at it as a small bonus.

Yeah, this can be an advantage, but won't last long against good regs who notice what you are doing over a long time.

This is true, but I see this a another good thing. The person who has raised 4x has probably seen the extra dead money in the pot and opened up his range a touch so if you choose to play the hand you will be playing vs a villain playing a wider range then normal and in position. What's more, even when he opens for 4x you are still getting better odds then if you were in the CO with out posting a blind. Normally he the pot would be 4.5BB (3BB raise + 1.5 in blinds) and i would cost 3BB to call, giving pot odds of 1.5:1. in the voluntary blind situation there is 6.5BB in the pot (4BB raise + 2.5 in blinds) and is still costs 3BB to call, pot odds = 2.17:1.

This is a good point and certainly would decrease the profitability of the steal

Sure, but AA isn't the only premium hand. This one point isn't supposed to single handedly make posting a voluntary blind from the CO profitable. Maybe it only adds 0.5 BB per 100 but it all adds up.

I don't think it's true that "you might as well be in the actual big blind" when posting the blind. When you post the blinds you are effectively buying the right to play the rest of the orbit (in effect folding does cost you something in all other positions), this is the bases of my simple math point (which admittedly isn't very deep analysis). So if your playing the same amount per hand, as discussed above, then wouldn't you want to pay your fee in a late position (such as CO) rather than early position (which the blinds are post-flop)

That's a great way of thinking about it that I hadn't thought of at all. So if we ignore the change in table dynamics, such as your better pot odds and increased deception, which wouldn't eliminate the -EV from posting the blind but would reduce that loss, -55bb/100 EV seems pretty resonable. So you play 1 hand at -55bb/100 and 5 hands at Xbb/100. To break even (1/6 x -55bb/100) + (5/6 x Xbb/100) = 0. Therefore X = 11bb/100. So if your win-rate from HJ to UTG is greater then 11bb/100 then a voluntary blind from CO is profitable. I'm not particularly familiar with win rates from particular positions, so does this sound achievable? My guess is that you would really have to be crushing the stakes to get that kind of win rate from early position. Once you take into account the advantages of posting a blind from the CO (which you labelled as "bonuses") that I ignored for this calculation I still think this is a profitable move. Your win rate might be lower but you can still earn profit.

[QUOTE=GhotiPistrix;36652470]Voluntary Posting Blinds

[this is my first post on 2+2 (actually my first post on any forum)]

interesting thoughts but there is a huge flaw to your math (imo): your calculation of 1.67 blinds per hand doesn't take into account that you get to play your button when you start in the BB, the most profitable hand. if you post in the CO, you don't

also you said "you get to see 6 hands"...well...you can "see" 6 hands for free and get a feel for how the table is playing without having to enter into any pots. this is a good opportunity for you to test/practice your patience - and develop free reads

also in terms of image, it's so standard for people to wait and some to post I doubt you gain any edge...you can appear to be busy like stacking your chips and checking your email one last time and just tell the dealer "i'll wait, thanks" and I doubt anyone is gonna think you're a nit. Also if someone posts I'm not gonna be like "that guy is nuts!!!! first chance I get I'm gonna stack of top pair to him!!!" if you really want a crazy image just raise to 5x blind instead of posting. then the dealer will tell you you can't...and you just do it anyway. then people will think you don't know the rules too well and are ready to gamble...that'll probably do better for your image than posting.

[QUOTE=spacecakezzz;36670319] I actually did address this issue in the discussion point

By see 6 hands I mean get too see 6 hole cards, not just observe 6 hands. I presume you are saying instead of posting blinds form CO then you may as well wait for BB to hit you and observe the table. Well why not do both? and if observing the table is so important to you before you start then you could always sit on the rail for a bit before you start

Your 5x raise idea is extreme and costs money to earn that image. Sure the voluntary blind wont convince everyone your a fish, but it will have some effect and (as i argue) it costs you nothing.

My numbers were just thrown there as an example, I have no clue myself about achievable winning rates from the various positions, but I think real win rate on the CO can be better than 20bb/100 and for sure you can get away with a higher vpip than 25% from that position.
Achieving win rates of 10bb/100 or better from middle and early positions seems very doable: keep in mind that folding is 0 ev, so any hand you play for value will give a nice boost to your win rate.
Overall, I think it's indeed +ev posting from the CO in a full ring table.

[QUOTE=GhotiPistrix;36671762] and what was the result? did you conclude that missing playing from the button outweighed this?

of course you can do both...what I'm saying is you will make more bb/100 having seen the table play 6 hands before you see your cards than playing immediately. It's not THE reason to not post but a contributing factor. your winrate should be higher after seeing some action. If you were able to sit on the rail of the table you were playing in and watch of course your winrate would be even higher...that's pretty impractical for several reasons though.




ok so your point is to only play hands you win for that round? dunno why I never thought of that!

Actually that's something you always do: you don't play a hand unless it's +ev in the long term.
The result is that your winning rate from any postion other than the blinds should be pretty good: if your winning rate was -2bb/100 from the HJ, you could improve it by simply folding every time, and improve even more by folding anything but pocket aces, which you'd push...

So, when entering on the CO your losing rate from that position will be significant on the first round, but on every other position your winning rate will be pretty fair.