Hey all,


This thread will mainly be for my fellow Americans. As you are all surely aware, online poker has been legal in Nevada with now 2 (Ultimate Poker and WSOP.com) sites up and running. Word on the streets is that NJ and Delaware are soon to follow, and very recently we've heard positive news regarding California and even New York! Many of us feel that wide-spread legalized poker might soon become a reality here in the states.

That being said, to me, the biggest difference will be that these legalized, regulated sites are not currently allowing HUDs. And I think it is doubtful that legal poker in the US will ever allow for HUDs. And yet if you look at nearly all discussion and theory on 2+2 regarding online play, HUD is a huuuge, central component. Many of us can't even imagine playing without a HUD.

The debate between HUD/no-HUD can go on forever, and both sides make excellent points. But that is not the point of this thread. To me, US poker will absolutely be HUD-less and my goal in this thread is to start sharing and developing strategy for play in HUD-less environments.

Things like:
-how to best take notes
-what major things specifically to look for, and how to note them
-best balance people find between # of tables played at once and gathering enough info on opponents
-streamlining information gathering from 20+ players (this is how many opponents you have if you 4-table 6-max)
-And much more.

Also, it is worth noting that at the moment the players who will be able to provide the best insight are those who win at either: Ultimate Poker, WSOP.com (once it gets going), and Bovada. Since those are all, to the best of my current knowledge, HUD-less environments. *yes I know about Holdem Indicator but is def a far cry from HEM. Holdem Indicator can and definitely should be discussed ITT, but it definitely isn't the HUD as we know it

With a new age upon us, let's get the ball rolling. Discussion of detailed villain stats and 4bet % when villain is oop is all good, but for now I think we gotta leave that to the ROW and move on to the new frontier



*Please free to correct me on adding any other major sites that are also currently not allowing HUD. The above mentioned are the only ones I am aware of atm

It'd probably be important to reference what stakes and format games you play (to anyone that posts). There is a huge difference between multi-tabling HU SNG's up to let's say 4) and 10+ tabling cash games as your normal grind in a HUD-friendly environment.

Some of the more notable things to really pay attention to are timing/click tells and obviously bet sizing. Looking for patterns in these two areas is key, and of course isn't really possible if you're playing a ton of tables at once. For me it's easier to notice these things in HU SNG's when I only 2-3 table.

...

Holdem Indicator is very helpful even if it just shows session stats. I don't mind the fact that the stats are just from that session as much as I mind the limited preset stats Holdem Indicator gives you.
Still stats like vpip/pfr are hugely important and you don't need a ton of hands on someone for those stats to become significant.

Are HUDs legal/not illegal? If so, proof?

Without being a US citizen I can tell you that if the huds go and you only would be able to 4 table or something like that you would see a steep climb in your winnings at the tables. While huds help you multitable you forget that others also do this and this is why you end up with 5 winners/break even, 3 slight losers and 2 (at the most) feeders at all the tables. I doubt that many of you would get hurt from an enforced hud ban, the really bad mega tablers would but most of you who have a basic understanding of the fundamentals and a decent strategy would do ok. You would simply switch from having bonuses and rake back as your main source of income to actually taking money of the tables.

Taking notes is pretty much just keeping them up to date and giving someone a general description where you perhaps write down a few hands where they get fancy. Instead of focusing on the other players you would simply use your hand histories to develop your own game; think evolve. There are few who wouldn't be able to get by without huds and the hud vendors would probably be hurt the most if they were banned + the random idiot who only know how to read a few numbers and base their play on that alone.

Yeah, I mentioned a lot of what you're saying in the Bovada thread. Basically, if you and I are both given an opportunity to gain information on each other, and we both do, then its a push. You can extract only so much of an edge in poker, and anything that levels the playing field only makes it harder to realize these edges. Brings back discussions of game theory in a college class.

I think your break down of a typical grouping of players at a table with a small % of feeders is a great example. Also, those arguing the games are still beatable are completely missing the point. There is an undeniable trend that there are fewer and fewer large winners in poker as the years and software/learning tools grow in usage.

i think this is very valid.

Obv without HUD you would just play GTO.

I do have to say here that, even if i sound like a broken record that HUDs can not be the reason why people are not winning.

However HUDs are the reason why people pay more rake (relative of course) which is the reason why people are not winning.

Even without HUDs people would be playing better today than 5 years ago. And even if the skill difference because of HUDs is closer and there are less really bad players, people should still win.

The reason why plauyers dont win is because the relative rake in relation to winnings/losses has grown dramatically. Now that poker is solved (snowie) this effect will be even stronger.

The only way to fix this is to fix the rake.

On the other hand banning HUDs is not going to fix online poker. In order to fix online poker we need winners and not just 10% of players, because a large %-age of losers will leave the game.

The current rake structure distorts the game, because players that are winners are turned into losers and big winners into small winner.

Do you mind elaborating in detail how HUDs have caused an increased relative rake?

Yes. Its quite simple actually.

When you play with a HUD you can play more tables, when u play more tables your winrate per table goes down but overall win per hour goes up.

However you are still paying rake per hand per table.

The size of the rake really depends on your winrate.

I.e. assuming rake of 6bb and your winrate is 10 on 1 table. Now if you play 10 tables you might only win 8 anymore.

Your actual winrate changed from 4 to 2.


What sites need is players with less of a winrate so they get more of the pie. this is why they love HUDs. It creates more liquidity more hands and less winrates.

In addition the multiplication of many players creates less of a skill difference on each table which again increases rake.


Another way of looking at it. Imagine you have 1k to play.

Now chop this 1k up into 100 chunks and play 10 100NL tables vs 1 1K table.

Where do u think there is going to be more rake?

So sites want you to play many tables and hands and win little, which is exactly what HUDs enable. The funny thing is that players think HUDs are bad because they give players an edge and win more. But the reality is they make players win less and pay more rake.

why would you NOT want to play with a hud....its fair for everyone

I am very unfamiliar with the workings of rake. Can you give a concrete example, using actual rakes from existing poker sites, of how a lower winrate = higher rake?

Sorry but in this regard (rake) I am clueless

Nothing wrong with HUDs in my opinion.

As for playing with them I personally use one, but its not the most important aspect for me. I just try to play GTO and if for some reason I need to adjust due to the fact that someone is a huge outlier a hud is valuable for me if the exploitative play is clearly better. That happens so rarely that the HUD seems almost not that important. Post play analysis is what I need my tracker for primarily.

I don't play enough that I ever get enough data for the HUD stats to mean too much anyhow.

You pay about 3-4% of every pot in rake. So you 6-8% of the money you win in rake. Rake is pretty much the same everywhere. I.e. you can look at the rake of stars or tilt and party wont be much different.

You can describe the rake in how much you pay per hand. This is usally described in BB per 100

So if you win 10bb and the rake is 6bb per 100 hands u end up being a winner. If you win less than 6 you are a winning player but still lose $$.

Professional players pay roughly 60% of the money they win in rake at lower stakes (200nl and below)

knircky, you are fighting windmills.

it is your decision to play more tables when using a HUD. you could easily just play one at a time with or without HUD. so the increase in rake is not caused by HUDs, but by your decision to play more tables (the infamous hourly, you remember?).

i can approve that you would win more without a HUD. i see that you finally come to the right conclusion here.

Obv you wouldn't unless your opponents didn't have exploitable flaws. Would you play GTO at a Bovada micro table? In live poker there are no HUDs and you don't have to play GTO unless you're at a table of Dwan, Ivey, Galfond etc.
Edit -- I see what you mean, if you've just sat at a table of unknown players at a non-donkey stakes then sure you'd benefit by starting out GTO until you had more info.

It's fair, but it's like a different variant of poker altogether. Arguably takes some of the skill out, or at least replaces some required skills with different ones. Imagine playing live poker and being coached in the middle of every decision by someone telling you, "That guy c-bets the flop 73% of the time." Or hearing someone say that to your opponent after you've made a bet. You'd be like stfu no talking in a hand, kick this guy out! HUD poker is a step closer to face-up poker, turns poker into more of a pure math problem. I think if anything, HUD poker is what would more quickly approach GTO, because everyone knows everyone's ranges.

As a live player, I like the idea of people not having training wheels, having to observe things on their own. I like the idea of everyone having to make their own reads and not let software make the reads for them.

^^ Agree. I play outside US but don't use a HUD. I prefer to play a game closer to poker than data mining/crunching.

with no hud one starts with one table, puts some color or other symbols, and notes for every player (some hud type and bit more) for most players, so one gets some feel. then adding another table and tracking that mainly.

i have played with no hud limit poker for years and been doing okay, though prefer to have the hud also. at plo with no hud, i get some pains, it being more important there, also because its such a slow game.

overall strategy when not adjusting is to be aggressive when the first doing so, and tight when answering to aggression. similar to speed and general tournament poker. if being worried, one drops that aggressive part. standard rock play, losing like the rake amount. with the aggressive hit and run, there is a big gap thing, till getting a line of opponent. with the line and maybe a bit better tables when no hud, one should be able to beat more or less of the rake.

I'm a live player and prefer no HUDS. Obviously for me this is a selfish decision. I've been playing live poker all my life and have acquired the skills needed to beat that game. If HUDs are allowed I have to go back and learn an entirely different set of skills and learn how to play that gsme. I feel I have a HUGE advantage over online pros playing without HUDs, unfortunately I'd prob be a fish in an online gsme with HUDs and players who really kmow how to use them.

Before HUDs there was the PT2 "Game Time" tab:



and the "Export Notes" dialog (which allowed you to output stats to the notes files):



Banning HUDs simply isn't going to work: it'll take about 3 days before somebody works out they can run something like the "Game Time" tab on a laptop infront of their main PC's screen...

Juk

"Banning huds" is usually actually done by making poker tracker mostly useless in the first place, at least, that's how it's done the times I've seen it. Such as, don't include user names in HH files, or have them be random numbers that change regularly etc. Like WPEX had numbers that were only constant while you were at the table, every time you sat down they'd change.

Ah yeah in general that would be the way to go, but I can't see legal US poker ever going to such extremes as there will be the whole "it changes the game too much" crowd complaining.

Even if they do go as far as this, there are always those who can find a way round it and they get a massive advantage over those who can't, eg:

See the "WorldPx/WPX/WPEX/WSEX - names in hand histories" posts near the bottom of page 1:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...6&fpart=1&vc=1

or the messed up attempts at implementing anonymous tables:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...hread-1135471/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-hands-914180/

Juk

i was not planning on commenting any further, but you got me confused. what is extreme about not including user names in hand histories? or not giving them out in the first place? chances are we disagree quite a bit on the definition of "extreme". would you, for example, consider live poker being extreme in this respect?

My point is that they either have to go to the extreme end of the scale making it totally impossible for a human to realize which players they're playing with (ie: anonymous tables or scrambled screen names, etc) or not bother at all.

There is no point in having a half-arsed attempt at anonymity like you suggest, as it'll just give anybody with the skills to create the HH files from the observations a huge advantage over everybody else... If there is any way at all to link a player to his history, however obscure (eg: creating hashes from the avatars and so on) and there is a serious monetary advantage to be had by doing so; it will be done.

Juk