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Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers

03-02-2010 , 06:11 PM
Was playing 200nl rush before heading to class today, kept getting squeezed by the same regulars and was thinking of the best overall strategy to exploit them...

Given 100bb stacks for all players

Hijack opens to 3x and you flat CO or BTN
or CO opens and you flat BTN (i'm using these as examples because UTG raisers are squeezed a lot less frequently)

And the SB or BB squeezes to 13x

Assuming you're flatting strong hands sometimes to exploit the squeezers (AK, AQ, 99-AA) and the normal hands (88-, suited connectors, KQ, etc) and you have to 4b (obv not 100% of the time, but in this case).

Question 1:
Is it better to 4b shove or 4b smallish as an overall gameplan against:

A more polarized range (AQs, AK, TT+ value, suited connectors, random xx suited, offsuit connectors, etc)

A more merged range (AJo sometimes, AJs, AQ, AK, 99+ value, and less airy type hands like the ones listed above)

Sorry if that was confusing but i'm basically asking if, as an overall gameplan against those ranges, it's more optimal to back-4b shove or back-4b small

Question 2:

Keeping in mind your thoughts on the first question...In a vacuum, with what frequencies would you...(%fold, %call, %4b small) 99, AQo, 78s, AA and why.

Question 3:

In a vacuum, with what frequencies would you...(%fold, %call, %4b shove) 99, AQo, 78s, AA and why.
Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Quote
03-03-2010 , 11:37 AM
If you weren't discussing Rush, which is a different type of poker, it would be worth a deep analysis but squeezes played in the vacuum of Rush tend to defy normal strategy. That said, Rush squeezes can be very +EV as most "good" players don't want to put themselves in difficult spots when the next hand is only a click away - you shouldn't either. Flatting steals in Rush is asking for trouble. Flatting steals in general is also -EV unless you know the stealer has a tendency to one barrel only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Haymakerrrr-
Was playing 200nl rush before heading to class today, kept getting squeezed by the same regulars and was thinking of the best overall strategy to exploit them...

Given 100bb stacks for all players

Hijack opens to 3x and you flat CO or BTN
or CO opens and you flat BTN (i'm using these as examples because UTG raisers are squeezed a lot less frequently)

And the SB or BB squeezes to 13x

Assuming you're flatting strong hands sometimes to exploit the squeezers (AK, AQ, 99-AA) and the normal hands (88-, suited connectors, KQ, etc) and you have to 4b (obv not 100% of the time, but in this case).

Question 1:
Is it better to 4b shove or 4b smallish as an overall gameplan against:

A more polarized range (AQs, AK, TT+ value, suited connectors, random xx suited, offsuit connectors, etc)

A more merged range (AJo sometimes, AJs, AQ, AK, 99+ value, and less airy type hands like the ones listed above)

Sorry if that was confusing but i'm basically asking if, as an overall gameplan against those ranges, it's more optimal to back-4b shove or back-4b small

Question 2:

Keeping in mind your thoughts on the first question...In a vacuum, with what frequencies would you...(%fold, %call, %4b small) 99, AQo, 78s, AA and why.

Question 3:

In a vacuum, with what frequencies would you...(%fold, %call, %4b shove) 99, AQo, 78s, AA and why.
Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Quote
03-03-2010 , 11:43 AM
If you're flatting raises with premiums and they're squeezing, you should either flat call or min 4-bet, DO NOT 4bet shove because you're closing the action and allowing them to play perfectly by folding. If you're flatting TT-88, I'd probably 4bet shove because leaving the betting open allows them to 5bet bluff you with 2 overs and essentially get it in good vs your range - which obviously sucks.
Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Quote
03-03-2010 , 12:43 PM
sorry the rush part was just party of the story..

assume that all of this applies to standard 6 max, 100bb deep cash games
Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Quote
03-03-2010 , 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by breathweapon
If you're flatting raises with premiums and they're squeezing, you should either flat call or min 4-bet, DO NOT 4bet shove because you're closing the action and allowing them to play perfectly by folding. If you're flatting TT-88, I'd probably 4bet shove because leaving the betting open allows them to 5bet bluff you with 2 overs and essentially get it in good vs your range - which obviously sucks.
Also though in most squeeze spots 100bb deep you really can't be 4-bet/folding much and anyone intelligent knows it. But yeah against a fish I like 4-betting small with AA because they can do weird **** like flat or shove random air. What if you are against a reg and you want to balance it? Shove anything you're going to raise? 4-bet/call any hand you want to raise? Just do w/e mixing it up? And am I wrong about not 4-bet/folding at all in that spot?
Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Quote
03-03-2010 , 05:55 PM
Non Rush I'd tend to agree with BreathW as far as flatting or min raising premiums for value. If you feel comfortable taking the flat/check line knowing that a high % of the time the squeezer will barrel the flop and you can lead or shove. I'd also being giving more credit to a squeezer who runs 20/8 w 15% steal than a 20/18 w 30% steal

I still don't like flatting the steal/RFI all that much unless villain habitually takes the donk line of R/B/C and even so if you exploit that line enough times he'll use it to set a trap eventually.
Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Quote
03-04-2010 , 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac
Also though in most squeeze spots 100bb deep you really can't be 4-bet/folding much and anyone intelligent knows it. But yeah against a fish I like 4-betting small with AA because they can do weird **** like flat or shove random air. What if you are against a reg and you want to balance it? Shove anything you're going to raise? 4-bet/call any hand you want to raise? Just do w/e mixing it up? And am I wrong about not 4-bet/folding at all in that spot?
If you min re-raise, you can get your fish to "spazz shove or call" a lot, it's more about how players react to the min re-raise than it's about how you balance it. Of course, you could do it as a bluff as well, because the min re-raise puts you below the commitment point and it looks super, duper strong. Obv. you can balance back raise shoving TT-88 with like AQ etc., I'm not sure whether you need to balance this with the nuts or not because if they're ever at the top of their range you've obviously made a mistake to begin with or shouldn't have been flatting your premium in the first place (not that it can't happen, you know what I mean).
Theory Question About Back-4betting Squeezers Quote

      
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