All IMO, but I think pot control is best applied in situations where you're not sure how to react against further aggression from villain. This will happen more often against good aggressive opponents who are balancing their ranges so well that you will be in a tough spot if you get check raised or bet into on the river.

Imagine a situation where you knew exactly what villain's range was for calling, folding, raising etc. Would you ever check for pot control? If you bet the flop and turn and get raised, it's a math problem. You would go ahead and bet if it were the line with the highest EV even though you are folding to a raise, or you would check the turn if that was higher EV ( inducing bluffs, widening calling range, or just giving up). In this situation, I don't see this as pot control. It's more a strategical decision to maximize your EV from the hand.

Against aggressive players where we aren't going to put them on a very accurate range when we get raised or bet into on a later street it make sense to keep the pot smaller since we are likely to make a bigger mistake in a bigger pot - we fold the best hand or call with the worse hand. I think you could also look at pot control as 'Damage Control'.

When we have good reads on villain, a skill edge, and can assign fairly accurate ranges that they will call/fold/raise with we don't check for Damage Control, we do it to maximize.

Edit: Okay maybe here is a decent example.

We have TPGK IP against a station on a fairly dry board. We bet the flop, villain calls. We bet the turn and villain check raises us. We fold. This won't always be the correct play depending on stack sizes and such but generally baluga theorem would apply. Would it be better to pot control here so that we can get to showdown? No of course not because villain is a station and will usually always call 2-3 streets with much worse than TPGK right? But we also know that stations don't check/raise turns with less than TPGK so it's a trivial bet/fold value line.

Same hand/situation but now we're up against Nanonoko. We know this guy is really good and is going to be playing his range against us in a way that is more often going to lead to us making mistakes. When we bet the turn, Nano knows the bulk of our value range is close to TPGK so he's going to be check raising us a good amount of the time and if we do continue we often face another/bigger decision on the river. It can definitely be a good idea to pot control here.

All imo of course.

I don't consider this pot control. I mean, you can call it that because keeping the pot small is one result of taking this line, but are you checking to keep the pot small or are you checking to induce bluffs, widen calling ranges, and also strengthen your own checking range so that when you do check back the turn villains can't run you over by stabbing at the river with ATC?

If this isn't pot control I don't know what is anymore. Sick level

If you are pot controlling because "your not sure" don't play that pot. Never play a hand where you will end up guessing is my opinion

So do you think that just because you check it is always for pot control or do you believe that there are other reasons for checking?

In your previous post you gave an example and I asked you if you are checking to keep the pot small or are you checking to induce bluffs, widen calling ranges on the next street, or strengthen your checking range so that villain can't bluff you with ATC. Care to answer that?

Most definitions of specific actions in poker revolve around the intent of said action right?

If I bet a weak hand to try and get better hands to fold then I'm bluffing, if I check the turn with the nuts because I think it'll induce a shove on the river I'm certainly not pot controlling, I'm checking one street and sacrificing my opportunity for thin value now to get fat value later, thus maximizing more EV over the whole hand.

This is not a good reason to not enter a pot.

If we hold say, AQ on the BTN, there is a fish in the SB and Nanonoko in the BB we should obviously raise for value even though we sometimes end up heads up with Nano and get into tough spots.

Don't remember this but yes I would check in position OTT to widen calling ranges OTR haven't really thought about checking to strengthen my checking range OTF tho. I play micros 6max and don't think most others think about checking ranges, only cbet range and calling to an extent.

Far as the nano hand example goes, if you can't play your hand for max value with different line variations IP then your probably the spot in the game because your pot controlling IP on the BTN the one seat you should be making the most money and supposed to have an incredible edge on. If a player in the blinds has you guessing then he's playing better than you OOP get outta there OR you aren't stealing enough and player in blind (nano) reads you so well because ur steal range is so small thus narrowing down your range really well and quickly

Well if you don't remember then just go back in the thread and reread what you asked and my response:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=27

Okay, so if you are checking OTT to widen calling ranges and also bluff ranges on the river then can't we say that the primary reason for checking is to maximize our EV in the hand and not to keep the pot small?

But what if all other seats at the table are occupied by droolers?

We don't expect to have to play every hand against Nano and should obviously be raising AQ for value anyway. Also, it is possible for the hand to be +EV for us even against a superior player because of position and card strength but that does not mean it might be better for us to pot control in this spot. This is the sort of situation where pot control seems to make the most sense imo, where betting the turn will lead to mistakes more often than calling the river.

It is also very common to be +EV at the table but -EV against certain players who have a skill edge or position on you. That is not a reason to say you should just open fold AQ preflop.

Yes. Hence the title of my post.


Including you? Lol jk

Problem with that is that he will know that. He has a billion hands experience no move he hasn't seen. So you gotta be unbalanced to the extreme. Value betting crap/real hands checking crap/real hands.

You should open fold AQ/72 against nano imo

I'm checking to widen calling ranges OTR and folding to river check raises and some river prove bets at the stakes I play (micros)

This doesn't answer the question. It was multiple choice not Y/N.




Haha. But I asked you a serious question which you didn't answer. You're saying I should leave the table or not play a hand that is clearly going to be +EV overall because Nanonoko is going to make my life hell when I'm in pots with him. So I'll ask you again, do you still feel this way if the rest of the seats are occupied by droolers?


Not sure how you're going to make a profit of a very good player by value betting crap hands, but I do get the point in checking 'real' hands for various strategical reasons, pot control being one of them.


Not sure if you're just trolling here. Obviously, if you are -EV at the table then you should leave, but I don't think it's debatable that it is possible to be +EV at a 6max or FR table even if you are only mediocre and the best player in the world is on your left. We have to factor in the other players at the table to decide whether we should stay or not. Pretty sure if we are going to stay then we should be opening AQ. Can't understand why anybody would say otherwise.

Pm me

Not sure what a PM would accomplish that we couldn't get done itt.

Okok open AQ but only if its suited. But limp if its offsuit

LOLWHYAREYOUTROLLINGYOUROWNDAMNTHREADZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZ?????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

Are we talking about pot control here or playing nanonoko?


If your questions aren't yes or no questions are there really right or wrong answers?

If you think I meant fold AQ... you aren't reading what I'm typing you already have an answer for everything. Why are you here?

ORLY?

Oh Jesus Christ you know what I meant. You open a wide range like Broadways/PP n junk. Call his 3bets with good and fold out the rest (like 72) sorry for the misunderstanding

Sick troll btw got me talking about opening AQ from the BTN and not pot control LOL ttyl

Here is another comment you posted... Most likely trolling yourself with this but I dunno 4 sure. You could be serious.....

No I don't know what you mean. I'm not particularly bothered if you want to troll yourself/me or if you're actually serious with some of these ridiculous comments. I'm just trying to clarify either way so that I can know if I should even bother continuing here.

I have no clue what this even is...

AK dominates AQ nvm fold AQ

/thread

Which one? The one about opening AQ vs nanonoko in the BB? Or the one about pot control? ??

lol really?

After you...