right I didn't really know where to put this so.. here it is in poker theory.

I don't normally use 2+2, I use CC.. where at the moment I'm involved in a discussion about having a 70 vpip directly to our left and if it is profitable or hindering to our winrate at that table.

http://www.cardschat.com/f50/25-nlhe...t-sure-206781/

just wondering what the general opinion on this was.. you don't have to post a wall of text, though if you do its fine I'd prefer an explanation.

thanks!

fish is from far the most valuable player whatever the position where he is. I would exchange any nit player at any position for a fish player

the fish is playing a such a wide range that its not uncommon to have him play any pair, Q3o, and low suited connectors. you are more than likely WAY ahead of the majority of what hes holding. you can easily take more money from him, plain and simple

Definately better to have the fish there than not at all
Generally though, you want the nits to your left and the fish to your right.
That's assuming fish is a calling station, if he's timid he's fine at your left.

You want tight players to your left and loose/aggressive players to your left. Some people think you're better off having any good players to your right as well but, in a tournament (where stealing blinds is crucial) I think i'd rather have a TAG to my left even if he's a decent player.
You want aggressors to your left so you know what they're going to do before you put any money in the pot and so you don't get three bet all day. It's also easier to play vs LAG when you can just call them down in position.
You want nits to your left because your steal attempts/position raises will have to go thru them.
You want bad players to your right in general because most of the money you will win in your life will come from your right.
Good TAGs are probably debatable. I like them to my right in cash and left in tournies

When he's on our left he can't limp in (unless we open limp)

The problem isn't so much about the times we play a pot HU OOP against the fishes range, but how it affects the table dynamics with the other regs. Once we open and the fish calls, we are going to get squeezed a fair amount and the times we don't we will probably get overcallers meaning we have to play multiway pots OOP.

fixed my post, thank you for pointing that out.

its also dependent on whether we play full ring or 6-max, no?

also, you might be better off having a nit to your left for the sole purpose of blind stealing when the opportunity arises. correct me if im wrong thats just my opinion

Nits are good to have on you're left. This way you can steal there blinds and also since you want to play ip more than oop why not have a player who won't play many hands in the place where he can play you ip the most.

Nits on left, fish on right

I completely disagree with the bold part. Do you really want a loose/aggro player having position on you most of the time. They can put you in too many tough spots. You want weak/tight players to your left and loose or aggro players to your right.

Think about it. Someone who has position that plays very tight makes it very easy to give them a range. Weak players won't raise you very often so they are fine on your left. If a loose aggro player is on your left he could easily raise you with anything and then you're left making tough decisions OOP for large pots. Not fun.

TL;DR Loose/aggro and fish to the right. Nits and weak players on your left.

I think you flip flopped "right" and "left" a few times....

There is no distinction between cash and tournament play in this matter.

Loose and aggressive to your right, tight to your left. And fish are of course best to have directly on your right. It feels like a hindrance sometimes when fish are on your left, but I'm sure it's still more +EV than having a TAG there.

LAG on your right is best, but having him to your DIRECT left is ok too. You can limp good hands, he raises, maybe gets a call or two, you squeeze, profit. It's kind of a reverse-isolation thing. It's not optimal but it's usually OK.

Loose passive on your left sucks balls, obv.

you want fish to the right of you and Nits to the left of you.

This way you have position on the fish and wont get reraised by the Nit unless he is super strong.

We want fish everywhere and anywhere. If, as I think is more likely your question, we have one fish and one nit and can choose where they sit, we would want the nit on our left and the fish on our right.

Fish on right, nit on left. True, but I think OP is asking if you are not in that ideal situation, how much value are you losing if you have no option but to have the 70VPIP player on your right.

left*


And I don't think he's actually asking that. Rather he is asking if it actually bad to have him there. The answer is no.

Oh, well having a fish to your left is better than having a non-fish to your left. I'm surprised that's even an issue for discussion.

Honestly I think this depends on how you describe a "fish". Nits are more profitable for me when they have position on me because they do not call or raise without the nuts.
Say you are sitting with middle pair on a dry-ish board. Maybe a flush draw or a straight draw out there. However, since you can't put villain on a range because he is limping 70% of hands and will literally call any and all bets OTF you have absolutely no idea where you are. This almost forces you to check on the turn regardless of what card comes up because you are trying to minimize your mistakes. Sure if he checks behind you can clearly bet river for value assuming the river is a blank but your missing huge value on the turn and could be digging a hole (especially if you flop TPGK and he flops some random two pair or catches two pair OTT and just calls again). This leaves you an awkward spot and mostly end up getting thin value which for most people is too thin.
If it's a nit you cbet any flop that doesn't fit his range and you pick up the pot 70% of the time no matter what 2 cards you hold if he continues you either fold with nothing or trap him for his stack with any decent hand (2 pair, sets, nut draws with right odds, OP's ) and you will stack them so often because they can't fold AA on a 236 board.
Honestly nits are hands down the easiest players to make money off. Who cares if you stack a fish. You can pick up a nits blinds or his bet (by 3betting) so often that it is more profitable then stacking a fish.
Honestly how often do you stack a "fish"?
Say a nit folds to a 3bet 85% of the time..which seems pretty normal to me.
Standard sizing you risk 9BB's to win 4.5BB's which means it needs to work 66% of the time. So what do you do? You start 3betting the nit with any 2 playable cards. PROFIT.
Oh he plays back? 4bet. Oh now he doesn't fight back? PROFIT.

But wait, their is more variance when you 4bet light. Variance is already high when you play against fish and have to bet thin value in tough spots.

Besides that when you sit down a table these day, what dominates; a fish or a nit? It's a nit.

TL;DR fish are nice but only in position, unless he's just a whale that calls with absolutely nothing (how many of these guys have you really seen lately?). NITS are so easy to play against no matter where they sit on the table.

Nits, bc you like to play pots having position. A 6max table with 4 nits and one calling station to your left is in my experience worse than a table with just 5 nits.

What? Take ANY nit from my table and replace with a calling station. It's not debatable.

Thanks. That's what I meant.

nit left fish right

I would prefer if the entire table were fish. Obviously if there are 3 fish and 2 nits at the table and you can sort them whichever way you please, then put the two nits to your left and the fish to your right.

If you are at a table and the seat to your immediate left opens up and it is going to be a nit or a fish, you obviously want the fish to sit ffs.

has anyone said "both" yet?

both.