In cash games most people are happy to lump everything in pre flop with ace king

But.... what do you do if you dont happen to have it all in pre flop (i.e. person just calls your re raise)

And the board comes all blanks

THEN the other person shoves all in


Do you call here or fold?

Because...... Im going on the basis that if youre happy to lump it in pre flop - surely you would be happy to go all in on the flop regardless of what comes on the flop?? Like what difference does it make (because if you went all in pre flop you would be in the same situation)

Whats peoples thoughts on this? Thanks

Pre and post flop are two different worlds in this case.

Pre-flop, you know you're not much of an underdog to a pair, except A's or K's, and a big favorite over everything else, including some hands people like to play like AJ or KQ.

With three blanks on the flop, you're a big underdog to any pair, and have almost no chance against two pair or a set. The problem isn't whether or not they hit, it's that you didn't hit on 60% of the board.

Even if someone is bluffing completely and has two low cards that match nothing on the board, you're only about a 75% chance to win. So if they have anything at all, even low pair or straight and flush draws, you're about 25% or less to win; if they have a draw it's probably about even; if they have nothing you're only 25%. Unless you've marked the cards, it's almost impossible to call here.

Night and Day.

You're usually happy to get it in with FIVE cards to come, because you dominate big card non pairs and you are flipping with all pairs except AA and KK. In addition you have big fold equity, as if a player has TT he isn't going to feel very comfortable with all the money in the pot preflop as he could be a huge dog.

A blank flop leaves only 2 remaining cards to come. You are now a significant (3:1) dog to all pairs

I agree with Aaron. You are only beating AQ or less and that's your best case scenario. Even a player with QJ and only a flush draw is still ahead of you.

You didn't mention stack sizes but unless you are getting better than something like 2:1 odds, calling with AK is usually a mistake. Even with 1.5:1 odds, you'd need a pretty good read that you are up against a hand that is not a substantial favourite. And if you are the pf aggressor and villain shoves, it is usually very rarely a bluff. If a guy can pull this move against you with complete air, you should probably change tables.

You mean like you raise to 4BB's and someone calls. The pot is 8BB's or so and the flop is 972 and villain goes all-in for 96BB's so the pot is 104BB's and you have to call 96BB's. Like that?


Fold. It's a ton different then getting it all-in pre-flop. There's only two cards to come instead of 5.

Fold - simple. One thing to keep in mond though is if the guy happens to be short stacked and makes this move, it may be just that, a move. Classic stop and go.

Say a large portion - like 1 third of your stack

So, most likely, your probably up against 10 10, J J, QQ where they wanted to see a flop and check for no over cards

This is kinda irrelevant.


1.) Say the pot is 35, my stack is 6 and he goes all-in for 5. Well that's a large portion of my stack but I'm getting 8 to 1.

2.) Whereas if the pot is 5 and my stack is 100 and he goes all-in for 40. It's a lesser % of my stack but I'm getting just 1.125 to 1.




Also in the first situation he's usually probably shoving a wider range than in the second.

Ok

Say about evens lol

like pot is say....... 60 - and he shoves for another 60 (all in) - and you also have 60

could potentially be a play, but say for example he has pocket tens, jacks or queens

Are you asking how to calculate whether or not you should call? It's very simple. Get out your pokerstove, check your EV. You should be able to figure out how often you'll win, and from that, how much you stand to profit or lose.

Shoving preflop, and calling a raise preflop and shoving flop are two entirely different problems - this should really be kind of obvious.

Holy crap how can you not see that AK preflop and AK post flop are two completely different things.

I mean, it boggles the mind how you cannot understand this. Seriously.

Im curious as to what most people prefer?

To re raise with AK and hope the person is getting it all in?

or just smooth calling a 3 bet?

My theory is re reaise a 3 bet but I normally drop the over the top 4 bet. Just because the %s seem to be much higher im going against AA or KK.

Thoughts?

Well if you know he has JJ or TT than fold but it's actually somewhat close. In your example you'd be getting 2 to 1 so you need 33% equity to call.



On a board such as 8c5c2d AK has 28% equity vs. JJ:


95,040 games 0.234 secs 406,153 games/sec

Board: 8c 5c 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.220% 28.22% 00.00% 26820 0.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 71.780% 71.78% 00.00% 68220 0.00 { JJ }



Throw in the gutshot draw and bingo:



Board: 5c 2d 3d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.227% 37.90% 01.32% 36024 1257.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 60.773% 59.45% 01.32% 56502 1257.00 { JJ }



or throw in a few other hands in your opponent's range and presto:


22
463,320 games 0.015 secs 30,888,000 games/sec

Board: 5c 2d 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.712% 30.39% 03.32% 140811 15383.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 66.288% 62.97% 03.32% 291743 15383.00 { JJ-99, AKs, A8s, KcQc, QcJc, JcTc, 76s }





I mean it depends on the pot size and the amount he shoves .... and it depends on the board texture ..... and it depends on the opponent.

For example if the pot's 40 and he shoves all-in for 27 on a board of 442 and he happens to be a guy who sees a lot of flops and won't fold pre-flop and then gets very aggressive and crazy post-flop .... I'm of course calling with AK.