Definition of a Hero Call: Essentially making a call with a hand that can only beat a bluff. Usually, the call is for significant money in a high pressure and scary situation.

A while ago, I discovered that a significant percentage of my losses were coming from Hero calls. So, I figured I'd plug that leak by just not doing them. Yes, this is a leak in and of itself, but since it was smaller than the leak of making incorrect Hero calls, I figured it was the way to go.

Fast forward....

A few months ago, I started making Hero calls again, and i've been doing fairly well with them. Currently, I only make them in very specific situations and that is what i'd like to debate and argue on this thread.

What are the criteria and components for a good Hero call?

What are the criteria and components for a bad Hero call?

How often do you make a Hero call?

What are the pros and cons of Hero calls and their impact on other aspects of your game (like image)?

And general discussion on the topic.

The goal of this thread is basically to improve the ability to make successful Hero Calls and understand the impact/benefit this ability could have to ones overall game.

With poker's evolution, players are more aggressive. Single barrel bluffs are not enough and villains are adapting and getting comfortable firing double and even triple barrels. It seems with this increased aggression, that the ability to make successful Hero calls will be more important than ever and that it would behoove us to really develop this skill.

but at the same time, it feels like this concept is on very very thin ice valuewise. So, I really need your big brains, opinions, ideas, etc to help shake out the pros and cons of this concept.

I'd like the definition to be:
*Making a call that is not a standard call for you in a spot where gameflow rather than gametheory dictates the conditions of the situation.

Because otherwise it's just another call where you act on number of hands villain would bet for value compared to how many hands he probably would end up in that spot with and then asking yourself if villain bluffs so much in that spot that you have odds to call.

Edit: Rather what you are talking about is self-discipline. I also know that some periods of my playing, all of a sudden I'm calling down everyone and everything. When I realize that and tell myself that "noone is ever bluffing" I start getting into the habit of looking for spots where I can fold more often and I stop bleeding so gd much.

I think, almost by definition, you can only hero call against someone with a polarized range on the river. By finding incongruent betting lines, you can find spots to "hero call" that just aren't possible against a merged range.

Against those who makes razor thin value bets (i.e. merged), you make your money not by hero calling, but by bluff raising. This, in of itself, seems more difficult than making "hero calls" just for the fact that the pot is presumably already large, and you're now risking a very large bet with total air.

Well I think it's difficult to think about making a hero call without a strong, trusted read on your opponent. A lot of the situations when you can make a non-standard call is when you know something more than you perhaps normally would about the range of the villain.

I'm not a particularly strong math player at the moment so I couldn't really comment too much on Game Theory in this instance, but tells, betting patterns and reads are usually the decisive factor in whether I make a 'hero call'.

The most recent example I can think of was on Monday. I had the chip lead in the final 2 of SnG. Villain had 80k ish to my 140k with the blinds at 5k/10k. I had Q8 in the BB and we'd checked all the way down to the river on a board of K J 7 2 2. Villain then bet 20k and I called with queen high and he showed 6 high. Most of the time I wouldn't make this call but I thought my opponent would push hard with a short stack from past experience with him. If he had some of the board. Betting 20k didn't seem to make sense to me, I thought I'd go all in for value and as a semi-bluff but probably check ace-high down expecting to win. This time I was right, another time I might be wrong.

^^^ I think by definition, a hero call can't be for 2bb.

Yeah it was a sucky example, but it happened so recently

The bit about reads obv stands though. That's one of the criteria the OP asks about.

Also, I'm pretty sure it was 40k and not 20, but 4bb isn't a hero call either lol

Off-topic, I see your location Dexter's table. I just watched the Dexter finale of season 4, blew my mind

I like your definition better, probably 20% my definition and 80% your definition is the proper way (at least for me) to think about what exactly a "Hero call" is.

Yes and no. Self Discipline is DEFINITELY a HUGE part of making a successful hero call, but there are other factors. The ability to make an impartial read is probably one of the most important attributes to have. Then of course having those reads be accurate is a necessary component as well. What good is self discipline and impartial reads if your reads are way way off. Of course, there are times when even Mike Caro's reads are going to be off, no one is ever 100% accurate...

Actually, your example isn't too bad and more or less is in the ball park of what i'm talking about. A Q high call in that spot for a 6bb pot IMO is definitely on the fringe of a Hero call (at least concept wise)

So here is my partial contribution to this concept and what/how i've been successful with it.

#1 Of course, you have to get a read on villain and this will also be a function of your reading ability and knowledge of the game. On a scale of 1-10 as compared to the typical villains at the table, I feel that my knowledge of the game in 1/2NL is a 9, in 2/5NL is an 8, and in 5/10NL is a 7.

#2 Next, I try to figure out how villain sees me. THis is a HUGE component. Does villain see me as a nit? Does villain see me as a TAG or a LAG? Does villain think of me as a thinking player? Does villain regard me as a donk? Does villain just not even care and play a static game (like one of those players who read the newspapers in between hands).

#2 is perhaps the hardest part of this equation because our egos are insidious in not allowing us to get past our own self-perceptions of our play and image.

#3 What type of player is villain? This is similar to #1 but goes more to the fundamental aspect and nature of villain. If villain is an ABC nit that has way different repurcussions than if villain is an ego maniac or a decent TAG.

Once #1 - #3 are taken care of, then we get to the real meat and potatoes of the Hero call, Gameflow (thanks Tultfill)

#4 What is the gameflow in this particular situation? How has the pot, board, and betting progressed? How has your perceived image been affected by the previous factors?

#5 How is the table? Has the table been weak, passive, aggressive, or nitty? What sort of bets and plays have been successful on this table?

The last component for me (admitting that I do not have a full solution to all of this by any stretch) is: #6 What is villain trying to do? What is villain hoping I will do.

The Hero calls I have been making boil down to #6. Is villain trying to push me off the hand or does villain really want me to call ?

Last week I made an incredible Hero call for stacks, 2/5NL.

I had just sat down and for the 1st hour I was playing ABC nit poker while I got a read on the table, so my image is definitely on the nit-tight passive side of things. I had caught a couple of decent hands that showed down well and i'm up to around $1,000. ANd then, I got into a big pot with a nitty hyperTAG villain who raised $45, I 3bet from the BTN to $120 with AA and villain calls.

Flop($240): QJ2

Villain checks, I check.

Turn: 6

Villain shoves all-in. He had been shoving all day with huge hands and given his preflop raise and the way he quick called my 3bet I put him on TT-QQ (he would had shoved if he had KK). So I fold my AA face up and say "nice hand".

Of course, the table flips out and everyone is all like, "How could you fold that, you should have shoved, you got the best hand..." and things of that sort.

The nitty player says "good fold" and flips his hand up showing me JJ.

Now, the table sees me as a passive sorta nit because no one ever folds AA in these games (if you play live you know what i'm talking about).

Okay, now we are set for my Hero call.

At this time, I'm up around $1200

Bully villain was an aggressive LAG who has absolutely no problems betting big and making plays. He had been bullying the table all day and is the type of villain that once he starts betting big he just doesn't stop. He also loves to raise in MP with 98o-Axo so his range is super super wide. But i notice that he overbets the pot whenever there is weakness and he is trying to steal. WHen he has made hands or draws he typically bets out 1/2-2/3 the pot and when he is really strong he bets the pot.

Bully villain ($1000 stack) raises $15 MP which is a very weak 'pot builder' kinda raise at our table. Villain to his left 3bets (short stack with $120) to $40. I'm on the BTN with AJ and call. Bully villain hesistates and I see he almost folds but then changes his mind and calls.

Flop($120): 7 2 3 rainbow.

B villain checks, Short Stack checks, I check

Turn($120): 6

B Villain bets $100, SS folds, and I call. Once SS folds I know I got the best hand. If B villain had a pocket pair or any sort of draw he would have bet out on flop (that is his style). Once the turn hit, I put him on some sort of draw, FD or SD or both.

River($320): Q

Villain shoves all-in for $680

I tank and just run through the hand progression. He did his typical dink pf raise with garbage and almost folded to the 3bet pre so his range is super wide. Then when he checks the low ball flop I know he missed simply because he always bets out when he has something. The more I thought about it the more i was convinced he turned a draw and rivered a brick. Had he had a hand like QJ he would have tried to get some value out of it.

So then I think what does he think I have? I played my hand face up and I think he put me on AK-ATs, KQs or 88-JJ. He also saw me fold AA to a shove.

So what is villain trying to get me to do? Its obvious, villain wants me out of this hand.

After a couple of minutes of thinking about it, I call.

He shows K9

I win with AJ

Nice example with the AJ, and it also reenforces my point about hero calls only being applicable against polarized ranges. If villain was capable of overbet shoving with Q9 here, you'd have a much tougher decision.

Also, villain played horribly in the AA hand.

I agree with what you say about polarized ranges. I've played quite a lot of HU against my dad who is competent player (he plays me for fun but also so I can practice my math and reads etc) and there's been quite a few occasions where I've called with like 10 high and been correct but there has been times where I've called with high card, only to run into a very strong hand like a rivered set.

Hardly ever, do I make these calls and lose to a marginal hand. It's always a polarized range, extreme strength or extreme weakness. Obviously there are misreads from me in there but it was strange how the pattern began to form.

Which is why I love playing live

But I agree and like your post. Polarized ranges seem to be a key component here.

p.s. in villain's defense, he read me for AA-KK, AK, AQ and most players at our table would never have folded an overpair or TPTK. For some reason, many live players are simply unable to fold TPTK or an overpair no matter what.

In basically every situation on the river bets are polarized. You either have 0% equity or 100% equity so no semibluffing it's just bet top x% of your range and bottom x%. Only difference is when it can be profitable to bet with like 100% of your range because say your opponent has such a weak range and you can value bet so thinly with hands that are never beat and you also bluff 100% of hands not good enough to bet for value. But those spots are few and far between so when facing a non-fish almost every single river range is polarized. And hero calling would be pretty irrelevant in that spot anyway. There are actually a ****ton of river spots where their value range is actually pretty strong and they won't value bet that thinly such that hands like A high become equivalent to TPTK. That's not always a mistake by your opponent sometimes he just can't value bet worse than TPTK in some spots where value ranges are strong. But if there's a spot you think they're not vbetting very thin at all and are bluffing way too much you can call with A high whereas if they were bluffing less it would be a fold with TPTK.

I'm good at these (from husng)

Poker Stars $25/$50 No Limit Hold'em $5 Ante - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $1180.00
Hero (BTN/SB): $1820.00

Pre Flop: ($85.00) Hero is BTN/SB with J 7
Hero raises to $125, BB calls $75

Flop: ($260.00) 6 2 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $150, BB calls $150

Turn: ($560.00) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($560.00) Q (2 players)
BB bets $400, Hero calls $400

Final Pot: $1360.00
BB shows T 5 (high card Ace)
Hero shows J 7 (high card Ace - Queen+Jack kicker)
Hero wins $1360.00


Poker Stars $60/$120 Limit Stud $12 Ante - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street: (0.4 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 9____Seat 1 brings in for $18____Seat 1 calls
Hero: Q 9 K___Hero completes

4th Street: (2.4 SB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 9 4____Seat 1 calls
Hero: Q 9 K J___Hero bets

5th Street: (2.2 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 9 4 3____Seat 1 calls
Hero: Q 9 K J 8___Hero bets

6th Street: (4.2 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 9 4 3 2____Seat 1 bets
Hero: Q 9 K J 8 3___Hero checks___Hero calls

7th Street: (6.2 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 9 4 3 2 xx____Seat 1 bets
Hero: Q 9 K J 8 3 4___Hero checks___Hero calls

Final Pot: 8.2 BB
Seat 1 shows 8 6 9 4 3 2 K (high card King)
Hero shows Q 9 K J 8 3 4 (high card King - Queen kicker)
Hero wins 8.2 BB

^^^ You are one sick puppy. I don't know whether to be impressed or to call 911 and get you some professional help. .

WOuld you care to explain your thinking during those hands and any thoughts you have on the subject?

In hand 1 did you have a lot of history with villain? Did you have a lot of stats on villain or did this all come about during one session?

Hand 1 I felt the guy would be reshoving most Ax and pps at that stack size, so he really doesn't have many value hands on the river that make sense. I also thought that he'd be float/bluffing with something vaguely connected to the board in that spot, so wasn't likely to show up with a JT or something and beat me by accident.

Hand 2 the villain was apt to 2bet most pairs and probably some A hi stuff on 3rd. On 6th I thought he was a lot more likely to bet draws than A hi or small pairs so I'm calling expecting all my pair outs to be good most of the time as well as the gutshot, and sometimes I'm ahead. Following on from that reasoning on the river he pretty much has a pat hand or air and I'm getting a fairly good price. Definitely would be bad vs most people but given the specific read I had I think it was a nh imho.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/11...itloon-869496/

in this thread in the end of my post - i ask a question, should we be calling a certain "
top part" of our bluffcatchers (even though we believe we will wlose vs his value hands with any of those bluffcatchers, no matter of their absolute hand strangth), and just add one more bit weaker bluffcatcher at the time, if his bluffing frequencie goes up a bit. What do you think? or should we just randomly call any "absolute hand strength" bluffcatcher for every different situation?

this.

Full Tilt Poker MiniFTOPS Event #5 (1r+1a) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200/t400 Blinds + t50 - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: t7560 M = 7.20
UTG+1: t5980 M = 5.70
UTG+2: t16562 M = 15.77
MP1: t23614 M = 22.49
MP2: t28126 M = 26.79
CO: t18197 M = 17.33
BTN: t8005 M = 7.62
SB: t7313 M = 6.96
Hero (BB): t22350 M = 21.29

Pre Flop: (t1050) Hero is BB with K J
4 folds, MP2 raises to t925, 1 fold, BTN calls t925, 1 fold, Hero calls t525

Flop: (t3425) 5 T 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, BTN checks

Turn: (t3425) Q (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, BTN checks

River: (t3425) Q (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t1200, BTN calls t1200, Hero raises to t3669, MP2 folds, BTN requests TIME, BTN folds

Final Pot: t7025
Hero shows K J (two pair, Queens and Fives)
Hero wins t7025

after deciding not to lead the turn, i planned on bluffing most rivers when it checked around but the Q was one of the worst cards as it double pairs the board and gives either of them incentive to look me up as light as A high/Tx (the bulk of either of their calling ranges, after checking two streets), so i checked to give up until MP2 did the strangest thing...he tried to vbet Ax or his pair of tens, and BTN tried to hero call him with obviously about the same marginal strength...soooo, i decided to c/r for about half BTN's eff stack (the shorter of the two) because i could definitely still legitimately rep Qx that way, and it's incredibly difficult to call a river c/r there without it.

also i'd like to correct myself when referring to their calling ranges if i decided to lead the river, i think you'd see 66-99 more often than Tx, but whatever, semantics.

This is too narrow a deffinition. In HU villain can take the line bet/bet/bet and you call down with A high because you know that villain is likely to be wide here due to game flow dispite his range being merged you still call knowing he has lots of air.

Just from a typicalnobody, my thinking is that a "hero" call is usally a coin flip.......so I ask myself, do i want to put my whole stack in, or entire tournament on the line for a coin flip?

The answer is usually a BIG no.

As a gambler, I do it anyway, and constantly have to fight the impulse.

TypicalNobody

A coin flip is NOT a hero call. A hero call is where you are calling with something very weak.

I love the concept of the hero call. People try to play it too often and it works out well for me

Few things. #1, I don't think you realize what exactly a Hero call is, read the first post in this thread.

#2, Not trying to be an arse here, but this line of thinking is how and why TAGs and LAGs own ABC nits.

Poker is all about exploitation. The second I figure out I have a player at the table that doesn't want to bet big or call big unless he has the absolute nuts (which is what you are implying believe it or not), this then becomes a license to bend said player over and give it to him good up the corn hole.

If you haven't notice, poker is becoming more and more aggressive. And thus, as a thinking player, we need to try to find and exploit all spots of value.

Sure, if you are an ABC player than you can be a winner at 1/2NL and not have to worry about hero calls.

But if you wish to progress to 2/5NL, 5/10NL, and beyond, you need to develop these sorts of skills.

In a local game I play in, ABC poker wins. I played that way for a long time and I went online and I got eaten alive post-flop. I think it's difficult to learn the skills you talk about until a player finally meets resistance to the style they first became accustomed to. In very poor games, pre-flop skill could get you very far both in cash and tournaments. I think this comfort zone holds back a lot of players (including myself) in developing better post-flop skills.

Being FAR from an ABC player (too far), I still think that there are many times, that the exact opposite that you have said, is in, fact, a better option. Of course coming from a typicalnobody like me, it dosnt mean very much, does it.