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4-Betting Does Not = AA

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10-01-2009 , 09:58 AM

ohudac

banned

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,168

At what cash game levels do you think a 4-Bet doesn not mean the villain has aces? From my experience this is at the 200max level. People seem to be 4-betting with AK and sometimes even air (i know i have against habitual 3-bettors). However at 100max and below no one seems capable of running 4-bets as a bluff, and it almost always means AA. Does this vary between sites and even between countries? Thoughts...

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10-01-2009 , 10:10 AM

Bannnnnnn

banned

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,696

I've seen people 4 bet bluffing as low as NL25 on tilt, granted its not the norm, It is usually one of those more advanced regulars you see everydayd at that level.

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10-01-2009 , 10:25 AM

styx2000

adept

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 902

i almost never see 4b bluffs at NL100 on full tilt (maybe 5 times in the last 60k hands somebody 4b/folded, obviously sometimes the 3bettor folds and i dont see it or i oversee it multitabling).
in that hand sample i saw exactly on 5b bluff (or tilt?) shove.

people do get it in with QQ+ and AK though as a standard line. i also got called all-in by AQ twice for 100bb and have seen it a few times that people stacked off with AJ, TT, JJ (for value i assume).

are you saying people most of the time call with AK/QQ/KK when they get 3bet?

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10-01-2009 , 03:26 PM

ohudac

banned

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,168

In my experience on Cake poker.. Anyone who 4-bets at the 100max level and below has AA or KK otherwise they are flatting with AK QQ. At 200max there there are a few aggressive opponents who you can get into 3bet-4bet battles with, where they 4-bet lighter with AK, QQ+ and some complete air hands.

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10-01-2009 , 03:58 PM

AdrienD

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 504

wow cake is so soft...
I play on pokerstars and even at 50NL ive seen regulars 4bet shoving small-mid PPs and some 4bet-call AQ.
Non-fullstacked players 4bet-shove a much wider range in general imo.

When I was at 100NL I 4bet-bluffed a decent amount with Ax, Kxs type hands (AK blockers)... maybe thats why I was losing at those stakes

also at 100NL on stars all regs get it in pre a lot with JJ+/AK blind vs LP or BvB

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10-01-2009 , 04:08 PM

springsteen87

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,998

Depends on image of players involved.

I'm relatively LAG, and have 4b/c JJ with confidence before. In general I'd say that NL100 is the first stage where regs will regularly 4b bluff

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10-01-2009 , 04:09 PM

fmj556

centurion

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 110

i 4 bet bluff a few times in 100nl in the right situations but never in lesser stakes because <50nl people like to call everything

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10-01-2009 , 05:24 PM

iIImatic

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,645

I play NL10 on pokerstars and 4bet bluff the tight 'regs' often and 4bet/get it in with QQ+ and AK against fish because so many automatically get it in with TT+ and try to slowplay AK by limp calling or flatting raises oop.

If I 4bet AA, I shove it to make it look like AK or some hand that wants a lot of fold equity (of course mixing it in with hands that actually do want fold equity)

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10-01-2009 , 05:33 PM

Micvanbob

banned

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 245

4-betting does not= AA. Most players are not that transparent, and a good player may try trap you in order to get extra big bets in later in the hand, as opposed to capping early on the small bets and scaring you into check-calling him down...

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10-01-2009 , 05:51 PM

#10

darkconcept

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,221

Is 4bet bluffing really that new to you guys? I thought even at 100nl, some players know the concept.

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10-02-2009 , 06:29 AM

#11

CalamityMarcus

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 583

on my room when i see a 4 bet 3/4 of the time its seem to be a monster kk / ak and higher . but im playing microstakes so mb its only mean something when we are in high stakes because ppl start to do 3bet and 4 bet more frequently

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10-02-2009 , 09:04 AM

#12

westswindon

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,345

Noobs.

Its all about the 5 bet 9/10 suited obv! Get with it!

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10-02-2009 , 10:22 AM

#13

Anderson Paixao

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,642

i 5bet steal with 97 yesterday

it all depends of the players image and the reads

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10-02-2009 , 03:02 PM

#14

ohudac

banned

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,168

I've 4-bet stolen with 36 sooted before, and most of the time it is read dependant or image dependent. I'd say against unknown's a 4-bet at 100max and below is 75% AA and 25% KK. Aside from that you might be able to add in some JJ-QQ + AK + air hands in when you create an image with other opponents.

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10-02-2009 , 10:16 PM

#15

Money022

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,809

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohudac

I've 4-bet stolen with 36 sooted before, and most of the time it is read dependant or image dependent.

When is it not read dependent with a hand that low in rank?

Running 4-bets with a bluff is highly read dependent. I can only think of a few times I've done it and every time I had a strong read on the 3-bettor and they went away.

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10-02-2009 , 10:51 PM

#16

Quantum_Fighter

stranger

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 7

Feral Cow Poker
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.25/$0.50 - 6 players

SB Grechgo: $50.25
BB microfrench: $63.50
UTG calicvol: $60.90
UTG+1 jjjjjjjjay25: $66.90
CO Hero: $91.30
Button riskyray: $54.35

Preflop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with

(6 players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, riskyray raises to $5.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $15.50, riskyray raises to $54.35, and is all in, Hero calls $38.85

Flop: ($109.45)

(2 players)

Turn: ($109.45)

(2 players)

River: ($109.45)

(2 players)

Hero showed

, and won ($106.45) with three of a kind, Jacks
riskyray showed

, and lost with a pair of Nines
Hero won $106.45
(Rake: $3)

The villain that 5 bet shoved in this hand is a reg and winner at the level.
http://www.pokertableratings.com/ful...earch/riskyray

Cold 4 bet on the other hand are almost certainly QQ+ at <100nl for sure.

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10-03-2009 , 06:59 PM

#17

pilotender

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 460

I too am amazed at the fact that Cake apparently seems so soft. The last time I played NL10 at Full Tilt, I was getting 3 and 4 betted light, not regularly but enough to where I was very surprised that it was actually happening at a stake that low.

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10-04-2009 , 01:39 AM

#18

duh

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,741

imo, on PokerStars there is wayy more 4betting at 100NL than at 200NL

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10-04-2009 , 01:00 PM

#19

shark_fishin

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,085

I think around 100NL, not very often at all at 50NL, and plenty at 200NL.
But i mean people 4bet QQ+/AK for value lower i think.

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10-04-2009 , 09:57 PM

#20

uke_master

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 17,231

I have spent about 200k hands at NL25 and NL50 and let me assure you, peoples range is FAR wider that AA for 4 betting. I have seen fish 4 bet and stack off with effectively ATC, and the majority are 4 bet/calling QQ+/AK I think. There are definately people (myself included) capable of 4 bet bluffing.

Just this night I was playing NL50 and 4 bet a guy 3 times in a row...the first time as a bluff and the second two with closely seperated AA. The guy 3 bet folded me the first 2 times and then shoved J8o. He was a 19/15 over 300 hands. So there are absolutely no absolutes.

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10-05-2009 , 02:07 PM

#21

mvdgaag

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,336

Any stakes. At microstakes people just 4bet for the hell of it. 10NL and 25NL are full of nits last time i checked, but even nits 4bet KK/QQ/AKs. Higher up most people know to 4bet bluff some opponents or 4bet light.

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10-05-2009 , 03:34 PM

#22

DonkDonkDonkDonk

Goose

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 40,569

I 4bet bluff sometimes with my SCs SAs etc. stuff that can flop well but not something it is profitable calling 3bets OOP with, very read dependent though. I'd say 3/4 of my 4bets are AA/KK though.

This is at 10nl-25nl.

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10-06-2009 , 04:35 AM

#23

styx2000

adept

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 902

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkDonkDonkDonk

so people actually call your 4bets? in my experience almost everybody either shoves or folds versus a 4bet. what hands would you call a 4bet with in position or out of position?

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10-06-2009 , 04:05 PM

#24

ohudac

banned

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,168

Quote:

Originally Posted by styx2000

so people actually call your 4bets? in my experience almost everybody either shoves or folds versus a 4bet. what hands would you call a 4bet with in position or out of position?

Some people flat 4-bets with AA/KK and sometimes even JJ-QQ hands knowing that the villain likely is 4-betting them light. If they 5-bet all in, many of those light hands are folded out, so they want to be sure the opponent will spew off the rest of their chips on the flop. Ive done this with hands as light as 1010. However, you cannot do this every time or else it becomes transparent that you are feigning weakness.. If they expect you to 5-bet all in with all your weaker hands hoping for a fold then you may as well shove then with AA KK knowing they will call you down lighter. Again, it really comes down to your most recent table image.

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