Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game

06-08-2011 , 07:58 AM
Spoiler:
not sure if you mean 3. dxe5, because that would allow Qxe3+. But otherwise occupying the d-file or pushing the K-side pawns doesn't make much sense. I'm now convinved that f4-f5 no matter what is probably not the best plan, i still like to play 0-0 Nd7 2. f4. White's clamping down on the c5 break nicely and can look to attack with a rook lift or some pawn advance. Because of the weakening ...h6 it's hard to get rid of the e5 knight.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do it Right
Spoiler:
I would like 1. g4 Nd7 2. f4!?. The idea is on 2. .. Nxe5 to play exf5 when I think white again has a very big advantage. He'll occupy the d file, have a vastly superior minor piece and be able to push pawns on the kingside once his pieces are optimally placed.

I'm not really sure what black can play besides 2. .. Nxe5 there either. That's really the main reason I think an attack here is so strong. Black just can't untangle himself in time.
Spoiler:
Since RoundTower posted this before valenzuela's 15th move, I'm assuming that's the position we're discussing. If not, please disregard this post. By the way, in your post you mentioned exf5, but did you mean dxe5 or fxe5? I'm confused. If you mean dxe5, then white drops the e3 pawn with check. I thought you probably meant fxe5 and just transposed the letters, but then white can't occupy the d-file like you mentioned because there will be a pawn on d4. I'm perplexed

If white plays 15. g4, then 15...Nd7 16. f4?! looks like a mistake. If 16...Nxe5, then white has to play 17. fxe5 or the e3 pawn hangs as mentioned before. So after 17. fxe5, I think black plays 17...Qa5+. If white blocks with the queen, black trades off and white is left with no attack and a static, weakened pawn structure. If white plays something like 18. Ke2, then black can play 18...Bd7 followed by ...c5 and can activate his bishop. He also has the opportunity to play ...f6 at any time and open the f-file where I don't think white's king will feel too safe. Against any g5 push from white, black can play ...h5 and keep the kingside closed. If white takes the time to push his h-pawn to h5 and then try to push g5, black will have some time to activate his bishop and open the f-file with the white king still in the center.

I think white is better off trying to nurse a positional edge, I think an all out attack would leave too many weaknesses.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 08:58 AM
Spoiler:
I like f4, but IMO the idea is not to push f5, but rather to simply use f3 for a rook lift. A sample line would be 15.. Nd7 16. f4 Nf6 (16.. Nxe5 17. fxe5 and White is completely dominating, without any counter-play for black. Either double on f file, or even same Rh3 followed by g4-g5 should do the trick) 17. Rf3 Bd7 18. Rh3 Rac8 19. Rac1 (maybe 19. g4 c5 20. g5 works too, don't wanna calculate) and now g4-g5 is pretty close to unstoppable IMO.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir_Desir
Spoiler:
not sure if you mean 3. dxe5, because that would allow Qxe3+. But otherwise occupying the d-file or pushing the K-side pawns doesn't make much sense. I'm now convinved that f4-f5 no matter what is probably not the best plan, i still like to play 0-0 Nd7 2. f4. White's clamping down on the c5 break nicely and can look to attack with a rook lift or some pawn advance. Because of the weakening ...h6 it's hard to get rid of the e5 knight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexAg06
Spoiler:
Since RoundTower posted this before valenzuela's 15th move, I'm assuming that's the position we're discussing. If not, please disregard this post. By the way, in your post you mentioned exf5, but did you mean dxe5 or fxe5? I'm confused. If you mean dxe5, then white drops the e3 pawn with check. I thought you probably meant fxe5 and just transposed the letters, but then white can't occupy the d-file like you mentioned because there will be a pawn on d4. I'm perplexed

If white plays 15. g4, then 15...Nd7 16. f4?! looks like a mistake. If 16...Nxe5, then white has to play 17. fxe5 or the e3 pawn hangs as mentioned before. So after 17. fxe5, I think black plays 17...Qa5+. If white blocks with the queen, black trades off and white is left with no attack and a static, weakened pawn structure. If white plays something like 18. Ke2, then black can play 18...Bd7 followed by ...c5 and can activate his bishop. He also has the opportunity to play ...f6 at any time and open the f-file where I don't think white's king will feel too safe. Against any g5 push from white, black can play ...h5 and keep the kingside closed. If white takes the time to push his h-pawn to h5 and then try to push g5, black will have some time to activate his bishop and open the f-file with the white king still in the center.

I think white is better off trying to nurse a positional edge, I think an all out attack would leave too many weaknesses.
Spoiler:

The one time I'm too lazy to go grab the proper move number. Lesson learned I guess!

I am talking about the position after 13. Qc2 since this would be the optimal time to play it. So lines in brief, with move numbers this time:

13. Qc2 h6 14. g4 Nd7 15. f4!? Nxe5 16. exf5! and I think black is in big positional trouble.

13. Qc2 f5 14. Bd3 Qa5+ I think white should be thrilled to go into the ending here with 15. Qc3 or perhaps even 15. Qd2!? If black does not go into the ending and plays 15. Qc3 Qc7 then after 16. f4 white has a massive and probably decisive positional advantage not to mention the possibility of an attack as well!

I don't see any other real options for black. It looks like white simply ends up with a much better game.

Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 10:20 AM
Spoiler:
Okay, really can't afford to waste a single tempo now, and have to hope he does something less than optimal as I chip my way back into the game. I really wanted to play f3 at some point, but that would leave g6 permanently weakened, so that's just off the table for the moment.

In an ideal world, I get my pawns to d6 and c5, my bishop on b7, my rooks and queen fight for the d-file which will open completely soon, and ... I'm not sure where the knight would end up in all this, but it's likely going to be at a defensive post for awhile. In the immediate future, it'd probably be a versatile defensive piece on f6, challenging his dominance of the light squares, especially d5, which I still think will be a very key square in the near future. If he wants to trade it off, I don't think that's that bad for me, because his knight is definitely a strong piece.

1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7

Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 11:10 AM
Spoiler:
I find it pretty amusing that Do It Right Did It Wrong again
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Spoiler:
I find it pretty amusing that Do It Right Did It Wrong again
Spoiler:
Haha, glad I'm not the only one. I re-read the second post several times and was still confused, I thought something was wrong with me.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 05:31 PM
Spoiler:
bah!
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 05:43 PM
Spoiler:
nothing to see here, I already had NxN planned. the strategy now is to not let his bishop play.





1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 05:52 PM
1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7



Spoiler:
Well I'm pretty sure that's good for me. The board is essentially divided into three parts. The kingside where I'm helpless, the queenside where I've got some play, and that little space on my side of the board where my bishop is entombed. The fewer pieces available to maraud my kingside, the better.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 06:37 PM
Spoiler:
I need to avoid c5 and e5, he is probably going to put his rooks on those files, Im going to start by putting my rook on c1, if he does Rfe1 then I will move Qc3, if he does Qc7 then I do Be3 and to e5 I can reply d5 and while that will end with his bishop having more mobility or with his bad bishop exchanged for my decent bishop it is going to come at the cost of an isolated pawn.

Possible position:





1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7
17. Rac1

Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-08-2011 , 08:42 PM
Spoiler:
So here is the original reasoning for white exchanging knights:

Quote:
Originally Posted by valenzuela
if after I castle he does Nbd7 then I will do NxN. It kinda sucks to waste my knight but his knight is just 2 moves away from Nf6 anyway so I might as well exchange it and then try to make life miserable for his bishop.
But it's not really a reason. The bishop is trapped without the knight exchange. Yes, it prevents ...Nf6, but that knight is still worse than the Ne5. It's sad to see the knight go away
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 04:24 AM
Spoiler:
im back!
please remind me, am i correct about the rules?:
-No engine
-Can't read the spoilers
-opening book allowed
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DON CASTI
Spoiler:
im back!
please remind me, am i correct about the rules?:
-No engine
-Can't read the spoilers
-opening book allowed
Spoiler:
all are correct I believe.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 09:11 AM
Spoiler:
Active play...active play...gotta get some active play...

I need some sort of pawn break. I kinda like Qc7 to support the idea of both c5 and e5 eventually, but the doubling on the c-file is going to make it kinda risky to put my queen there. Qd8 gets out of the way of my pawns as well, but I don't see what good that does me. Qb4? Qa5? With his knight off the board, the dark squares on the queenside are a lot less scary for my queen.

Qa4 actually supports the idea of a pawn advance on the fifth rank as well. That's kind of an interesting move. I kinda like it, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out after the game that it was a waste of time. I just don't see anything better to do. I have some rook moves. The only other vaguely appealing move is Rfe8, but the problem with that is that it commits me to the e5 pawn break, which can be shut down by f4. I'd rather keep my options open.





1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7
17. Rac1 Qa5
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 12:19 PM
Spoiler:
ok didnt see that coming, he is threatening e5 and Qxa1 at the same time.

The only move I kinda like is b4 because its stops the queen from Qxa2 and at the same time it prevents e5. I think his best bet after that is Qg5 but I will analyze that after he moves, so far I have Qc5 which leads to position that I think look slightly better to me.

Anyway I hope I didnt miss anything.






1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7
17. Rac1 Qa5
18. b4
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 12:21 PM
Spoiler:
if he takes the pawn I do Rb1 and he cant stop me from doing Rxb7 and I think that would look really good for me
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 12:28 PM
1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7
17. Rac1 Qa5
18. b4 Qc7

Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 04:09 PM
Spoiler:
So he left my a file pawn alone but he is still threatening e5.
If I protect the e5 square with my queen then he can still do Rfe8 and I will have to do f4 to avoid e5 which will leave my e file pawn really weak in theory.

Of my possible moves, b5 doesnt look to good because of Qb6, xc6, Bxc6.

Qc5 doesnt look too promising either.

Qb2 looks good at glance because it pressures e5 while at the same time protects b4. However it leaves the queen and the bishop without protection. As a result of that lack of protection he can do Qb6 at some point. So Im going to have to lose a tempo doing Rc2.

The other option is doing Qc3 and then f4 which doesnt look that bad

I suspect he is going to have to move his pawns and screw his structure to attack the weakness I will create. I see him trying to do a5 but I can do a3 and all he will get from that deal is an open h file.

The other option is to do f4 right away but then he will attack me with a5.


****...

Ok so im not too sure what to do here but I suspect Qc3 is my best bet because it protects the b pawn and I will need that sooner or later.

Im looking forward to read your spoilers after the game ends



1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7
17. Rac1 Qa5
18. b4 Qc7
19. Qc3

Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 04:30 PM
Spoiler:
i really think black Q must move out from there. e4 wouldve been very annoying imo, although not sure if it was a good move (im assuming no engine in comments either). i would prob. play Qd6 here.
Also i was pondering the e-pawn sac for activity, but i think its out of the question. Or maybe just activate rooks and wait white's plan. Dificcult defense imo.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-09-2011 , 04:38 PM
Spoiler:
Welp, he keeps thwarting any immediate plans I have, but I can't help but think that this is slowly turning better for me. We've gone from being monstrously behind in development to "merely" stuck in a bad bishop vs. good bishop situation.

My first instinct here is a5. I'm not even sure why, it just looks pretty.

a5 bxa5/Rxa5 and suddenly he's got a weak pawn on a semi-open file to worry about and I've finally got something active to pressure.

a5 b5 looks kinda icky, but I don't think it's really bad for me. He can pile up attackers on f3, but he can't really win the exchange there because he's leading with his queen. In that scenario, I want to get my queen off of that file. The problem is, none of the squares look appealing. I don't want to allow b6, which really cramps my position. Maybe Qd8. Just finished the Rooks chapter in HTRYC and a lot of those scenarios involved being willing to put your queen on the back rank so you aren't leading with it when you pile up heavy pieces on a file.

As usual, I'm justifying my first instinct instead of considering other options.

Rfe8 to keep trying to play e5? f4 is looming to shut e5 down Though I'm betting he doesn't think about it. Too much play on the queenside to be pushing kingside pawns.

Rfc8, to try and protect this c-file? Passive and failing.

b6? Doesn't seem like a good idea to weaken the pawn he has everything bearing down on.

a5 it is. Because it looks pretty.

1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7
17. Rac1 Qa5
18. b4 Qc7
19. Qc3 a5

Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-10-2011 , 03:12 AM
Spoiler:
this game confirms why it's often better for white to attack on the K-side than on the Q-side in typical QGD positions. The Q-side play lacks punch more often than not.
This guy would have hated Nxd7:

huge spoiler ftw
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-10-2011 , 09:55 AM
Spoiler:
three options : a3, xa5, something else.

Something else has the problem that after xb4 if i capture back then he does Rxa2 so its either a3 or xa5.( or rc2)

Anyway the two options:



if he does qxa5, i do qxa5 and then Bc4



Rc2 would look like this:




Bc4 looks like this. Its not ideal but the other option is putting a rook on a1. However here he can do e5.



The final option



I think the first looks better for me at first glance but after playing out different scenarios I dont like it that much.

Keep in mind that the strenght of my moves depends on what I see with black, what I saw with a3 for black is worse for white than what I saw with xa5.





1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Nc3 e6
5. Bg5 Be7
6. e3 0-0
7. Bd3 Ne4
8. Nxe4 dxe4
9. Bxe7 Qxe7
10. Bxe4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 Qxc4
12. Ne5 Qa6
13. Bd3 Qb6
14. Qc2 h6
15. 0-0 Nd7
16. Nxd7 Bxd7
17. Rac1 Qa5
18. b4 Qc7
19. Qc3 a5
20. a3

Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-10-2011 , 06:28 PM
Spoiler:
No way White wins this game imo, he's making concession after concession as if it's nothing. It's not a good idea to play for a technical win if you have bad technique! If Kyle doesn't blunder material again he will at least draw
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote
06-10-2011 , 07:44 PM
Spoiler:
I'm surprised that b5 didn't even figure into the analysis. That's definitely the move I would have looked at first.
Valenzuela vs KyleJRM82 malkovich game Quote

      
m