And given a choice in that position after b5 which side would you choose? There's so many branches there has to be some point where you simply let intuition take over.

so are you saying that you would instantly remove cxb4 from your candidate moves based on intuition instead of checking the lines? because that's what I am arguing, not that cxb4 is the best move in that position

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. In that position it is clear there is no hidden resource for white. If he can survive it's going to be after enduring a long, painful initiative from black where one slip is going to cost him the game.

I just don't think it's practical to play positions like that without an incredibly good reason. Being pragmatic about it, even if you are technically slightly better (which I strongly doubt is the case), it's going to be incredibly difficult to convert that and rather easy to lose it. And taste wise, you are certainly a sick one if defending that sort of position is enjoyable for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLQiNB_R8Q

fast forward to 1.59 or so

I probably wouldn't play that in the OTB game, but I sure as hell would check the lines to the best of my ability before deciding. In a correspondence game, I would check all the possible branches till exhaustion and I would have to find something real for BLACK in order for me not to play it. Whether I would find it or not is not the point, the point is that not analyzing the lines after your opponent offers you a pawn in a correspondence game is foolish.

And cmon now, "it is clear there is no hidden resource for white" is a pretty big overstatement. Without analyzing the position at all I gave two or three different plausible lines for white and I am yet to see a specific line from black that shuts it down. Am I asking too much? your intuition says it's horrible to take - my very first thought after looking at the position was exactly the same, yet my intuition says that white CAN have enough resources and therefore it has to be analyzed (especially since this is correspondence).

My comments were in reference to an OTB game. That probably clarifies some things.

We have a semi-agreement then

Continuing with the mentioned line, i make my last "book" move. If he exchanges in the centre with dxe5, we get a classic Rauzer structure. Fischer won countless games with white in this kind of pawn structure. White will try and maneuvre his knight towards d5 or f5. I can't really stop that in the long run and i have also exchanged my important light squared bishop, so rapid counterplay is in order to offset white's structural advantages. One good thing about the position is that he can't stop ...c4 now, and the dreaded spanish bishop is kept under lock and key at the moment.

If he doesn't exchange, i'll have to find a plan. One idea could be 14. Nd2 Qc7, threatening cxd4 and forcing him into a decision regarding the Bc2. I'll look at the resulting positions more deeply when they arise, because white's decision to take on e5 or not has a huge impact on further play.

just for the record, is anyone interested in playing a correspondence game from the position after cxb4 instead of d4? I am just really curious about it I'd play the white side of course.

I would but maybe you need somebody that'll play the best lines

This position is sort of unique to me and I didn't know how to go about it. Finally I settled on idea fixing the pawns in the center and swapping the knight on f6 for my dark squared bishop. That way I'll try to work my pieces on the d5 square which the dark squared bishop of black's cannot touch

I'd like to see something a bit more concrete. dxe5 can't be a terrible move but there is no real follow-up, Bg5xf6 would be very premature when White is still so far from actually occupying d5. I would rather play Nd2 and assume Black shouldn't chop on d4 with or without taking on c3 first. If he rejected this line because of something specific, I'd like to see it

Not much to say here. After the expected Nd2 i have a decision to make between the immediate c5-c4 and developing with some kind of half-tempo by Qc7 or Rc8.

of course this is nonsense, Qc7 doesn't win a tempo because i don't threaten cxd4 any longer. Still a candidate though.

Rb8 looks good to me too.

Whats the point of c4 black seems to want to play? That looks very commiting to me and personally and I really cannot see any immediate gain.

Keeps the light square bishop under lock and key for a long time

nd7+bg5 would be positionally desirable for black (but maybe hard to achieve). I guess c4 is indeed about making it harder to relocate the bishop and preventing Rd1 due to b3, but not sure if its urgent

Every day I sorta look at this position a bit and don't make a lot of progress. But it's been way too long, I have to move something.

Hmm I want to play Bg5 but then there is Nd7 and black sets up Nb6 (offering the exchange of his ****ty bishop for my sexy bishop) so maybe Rd1 first. The problem is that Rd1 suffocates my light squared bishop. black can threaten c4 followed by b3.

I played with some lines but I think I'm going to settle on something like this 15. Rd1 Qc7 16. Bg5 c4 17. cxb4 Nc6 18. Bxf6 Nd4 19. Rxd4 exd4 20. Bxd4

Oh wait that doesn't work because instead of 18...Nxd4 there is just Bxf6 so then I looked at this 16. Bg5 c4 17. cxb4 Nc6 18. Bxf6 Bxf6 19. Nc3 Nd4 20. Rxd4 exd4 21. Nd5 Qe5 22. Qg4 Kh8 23. f4 Qd6 24. e5 Qxd5 25. exf6 Rg8 26. Qh4 but that doesn't look happy either.

I sorta like the look of this line 15. Rd1 Qc7 16. Bg5 c4 17. Bxf6 b3 18. Bxe7 bxc2 19. Bxf8 cxd1=Q 20. Qxd1 Nb3 21. Ra3 Rxf8 22. Rxb3 cxb3 23. Qxb3 But to make serious progress I think I have to keep the queens on the board.

May I ask why do you guys post only in spoilers?

15. Rd1 looks wrong intuitively even before looking at the tactics of the position. It's moving the rook for the second time (third including castling) before two minor pieces have gotten of the back rank.

On e1, the rook is useful as a protector of the e4 strongpoint. Obviously, you don't want the Queen doing that much longer.

Also, the a1 rook's future doesn't look as promising. The d-file was an obvious destination for it now that the a-file is unlikely to open up.

Nikachu seems to be making the mistake of looking for tactical opportunities and complications before he's fully developed.

I also think he's trying to hard to calculate out 7+ moves. He should be more focused on two or three move variations and getting those right.

15. Rd1 is a perfect example of the "Reverse tempo win" (just came up with this name now, will patent) because not only does it not win a tempo, it will actually lose it. Math here is pretty simple - if we take the position before Rd1, one of the most natural plans for black is to develop the Q, say Qc7, and play one of the rooks to d8. That gives white three moves to do something about it, one now, one after Qc7 and one after whichever rook to d8. It's important to note that after Rd8 white still has an essentially "free" move because there is nothing on the d file.

Now let's take the position after Rd1 Qc7 where black probably wants to play Rd8 next move. So white has one move now, but after Rd8 he runs in to trouble because he doesn't have a "free" move anymore, he has to worry about the d1 rook. Thus, essentially, Rd1 actually loses a tempo.

In this particular case so it happens that most of the logical "free" moves for white will also simultaenously take care of the d-file in one way or another. Something like Rd1 Qc7 Be3 Rfd8 Nd2 or so. However, Rd1 is still a pretty bad move because the A rook is pretty screwed in this scenario. If instead white opted for immediate Be3/g5 followed by Nd2 and Rad1, both of his rooks would be playing some sort of a role on the board.

I think black is already better to be honest.

given nikachu's description after 15. Rd1 Qc7 16. Bg5 is it worth black playing Ne8 to encourage the exchange of bishops? and if 17. Be3 then Nc4, and if 17. Bc1 black is at least equal

c7 looks like the obvious place to put my queen. I don't know if Rd1 is that good, it doesn't really win a tempo because i was going to move the Q anyway and it takes away another square from his light-squared bishop. After 15. ...Qc7 16. Nd2 c4!? he has to either move the rook again or take on b4. 17. cxb4 Bxb4 and it's hard for him to stop ...c3 and i have the positional threat of maneuvring a minor piece to the outpost on d4. In contrast, he's far away from occupying d5. I'll look some more at concrete lines before moving, but now Qc7 looks like the most likely candidate. Qb6 also looks active, but might allow him to develop his Bc1 with tempo one day.

While it makes a strange impression putting everything including pawns on the same colour squares, i hope a further advance of my queenside will sort this out.

Not much to add, i expect the move Nd2 and i'll probably answer c4 to further my queenside initiative before he consolidates, develops and moves his N on a f1-e3-d5/f5 circuit. I still think he had more urgent moves than Rd1, which does occupy the open file but without the backup of the Ra1 doesn't have much support.