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Correspondence Analysis Experiment Correspondence Analysis Experiment

06-03-2010 , 05:16 PM
Just a note, if anyone else is considering doing a thread like this themselves, let me warn you now that it takes a LOT of self control. Those spoiler boxes are REALLY tempting, lol. I can't wait to finish the game so that I can read them
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06-03-2010 , 05:19 PM
Spoiler:
Hi Bob, how u doin?
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06-03-2010 , 05:49 PM
Spoiler:
I don't particularly like that IQP position, it doesn't look easy for Black to get an initiative so he will probably just be trying to play for d5-d4, and White's knight on e2 will actually become more useful because he can go Nf4 with pressure on d5.

e.g. 0-0 e5 de Ne5 Bb5+ Bd7!? Bxd7+ Qxd7 Nf4 looks strong for White to me

that said, I don't know what Black should be doing instead, maybe Dynasty's idea is best.
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06-03-2010 , 06:55 PM
Spoiler:
Wow 5. e3 is ugly in an excahange Slav. White usually uses the Nc3 move order in the exchange if he wants to play Bf4 + e3, hoping for e6 + Bd6 from Black when white can go 7. Bxd6 Qxd6 8.f4 planning to plant a Knight on e5 and go for a Colle like kingside attack without the black square bishop closed in...after e3 it should already be =. Only active post for the Bishop is a3 but it is basically hitting air from there.

Last edited by RoundTower; 06-03-2010 at 11:01 PM. Reason: dont do that again
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06-03-2010 , 08:35 PM
Dude! Spoilers.
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06-03-2010 , 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdoc
Dude! Spoilers.
THIS!!! Plzkthx
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06-04-2010 , 04:27 PM
O-O O-O, I don't think this really requires any explanation.

Moves so far:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 cxd5 5. e3 Nc6 6. Bd3 g6 7. Nge2 Bg7 8. O-O O-O

Current Position:
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06-04-2010 , 05:00 PM
Huh, very interesting, he played 9. f3?! That looks pretty good for me at first glance. I mean it prevents me from playing Bg4, and could potentially set up an e4 push if he wants to bust up the center, which could give him a strong position with pawns on d4 and e4, after an e4 dxe4 fxe4 tradeoff, but I can always just play e6 and not trade, and all he has is a little extra space in the center, but with a major weakness in his king position, and I don't think I have any significant weaknesses there.

The question is, am I prepared to jump in with an attack on his king position immediately? An immediate e5 push to try to break up his e3-d4 pawn chain and give me access to the g1-a7 diagonal looks promising. If e5 dxe5 Nxe5 then I have almost all my pieces aimed at his king, and moves like Bh6/Qb6/Nc4 to put heavy pressure on his backwards e-pawn. If he doesn't play dxe5, then I play exd4 exd4 and while we both have isolated d-pawns, his is a lot more vulnerable due to the weakness of the diagonal. Qc6 and Nh5 (or maybe not h5, but somewhere) are ideas to build pressure fast, along with a check threat.

I don't know for sure, calculation isn't my strongest point, and there's a lot of ways he could try to respond, but his pieces seem more cramped than mine, and f3 definitely put some weaknesses in his pawn structure, and I have a few attacking ideas that I like. I think e5 looks good. Let's give it a try!

Moves so far:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 cxd5 5. e3 Nc6 6. Bd3 g6 7. Nge2 Bg7 8. O-O O-O 9. f3 e5

Current Position:
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06-04-2010 , 05:30 PM
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobJoeJim
Huh, very interesting, he played 9. f3?!
I know that this is after the fact, but I thought that this was somewhat the point of 7. Nge2. Along with maybe Ng3, white is working on that e4-pawn push. Also, on e2 instead of f3, the knight isn't in the way of the f2-f3 pawn move, so it would make sense that he was thinking about this from move 7.


It's almost as if I've said nothing...
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06-04-2010 , 06:09 PM
Spoiler:
maybe e5 is justified now, it certainly looks much better than the variation I gave in my last post

I think BobJoeJim pretty much has it nailed down with his ideas after this
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06-04-2010 , 07:41 PM
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobJoeJim
If e5 dxe5 Nxe5 then I have almost all my pieces aimed at his king, and moves like Bh6/Qb6/Nc4 to put heavy pressure on his backwards e-pawn.
Are any of the black pieces aimed at the white king?? Bishop on c8 is sort of - it does touch h3.
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06-05-2010 , 01:25 AM
10. Qb3 counter attacks my d-pawn, which temporarily locks down my f6 knight, preventing an immediate discovered attack on b4 with my bishop (after exchanging pawns). It also threatens my b7 pawn, locking my white-squared bishop in place for the moment. So that crimps my "bust up the center and attack" plan a little.

I'd like to play b6 at some point, to free the white-squared bishop. Ne7 could solidify defense of the d-pawn, freeing the other knight to discover the attack on d-4 eventually, but that doesn't really do anything since I'm I'm just trading one attacker for a different one, and not actually building up more force there. exd5 is still on the table, to start working on opening up the diagonal, even if I'm not necessarily going to get my bishop/queen onto it immediately for an attack in the next couple moves, I still think that opening that diagonal will be beneficial in the long run. Though, the downside is it frees up his black-squared-bishop and if the middle opens in the wrong way suddenly it's his bishop pair/queen and a knight or two that are staring my kingside down, not the other way around.

I don't see any danger in dxe5 Nxe5, so it's not like exd5 is anything that has to happen immediately, if I am going to play it. I'm thinking about b7/Be6 to solidify my defense on d-5, and then look at a breakthrough in the center. b7 leaves the c-6 knight undefended though, and I'm not sure what I'd do about 10. ... b6 11. Bb5/Qb5/Qa4. Probably I'd have to play 11. ... Bb7, which means no Be6. Still... I don't see any better ideas here. (This is one of those moments I'm almost sure the spoiler comments will have ideas I'm not thinking of, which will probably seem painfully obvious in retrospect but which I can't see right now.) Also, it's possible this is just fueled by the fact that I've dropped that b-pawn way too many times, and perhaps I'm just being overcautious. Nevertheless, b6 it is.

Moves so far:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 cxd5 5. e3 Nc6 6. Bd3 g6 7. Nge2 Bg7 8. O-O O-O 9. f3 e5 10. Qb3 b6

Current Position:
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06-05-2010 , 08:39 AM
Spoiler:

i'm not sure b6 is that good. If White plays Bb5 then Bb7 loses a pawn. You can play Na5 after Bb5, and maybe that's okay for Black.

Maybe you could play a6 with the idea of b5. Qb6 (immediately or after trading on d4 was an option too).



Last edited by John_Douglas; 06-05-2010 at 08:45 AM.
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06-05-2010 , 10:11 AM
Spoiler:
I would have played Re8 instead of b6. Bring a rook to the semi-open file (which will likely either become complete open after exd4 exd4, or it will have a weak pawn on e3 if white takes on e5). Also, you don't create any weaknesses and its hard for white to find a good move. Bd2 is like the only thing that makes sense, but then you have some interesting ideas with Bh6.. And rook on e8 will become a very important piece soon.
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06-05-2010 , 10:19 AM
Spoiler:
b6 is ok, but I would have played Rb8. Re8 is also good
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06-05-2010 , 04:38 PM
Spoiler:
yea re8 looked standard
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06-05-2010 , 05:32 PM
Spoiler:

The problem I have with 10...b6 is that the light-squared bishop looks like it belongs on e6 rather than b7.
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06-05-2010 , 07:26 PM
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty
Spoiler:

The problem I have with 10...b6 is that the light-squared bishop looks like it belongs on e6 rather than b7.
What's the idea behind Be6? d5 pawn is well defended and Be6 only closes the e-file for black rook. imo b6 Bb7 Rc8 Re8 and then maybe Na5-c4 is a very good plan for black.
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06-07-2010 , 04:53 PM
Just wanted to say I am basically a chess novice and this thread is really instructive/helpful to me, thanks for doing it!
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06-07-2010 , 06:05 PM
Spoiler:
WARNING: Important (in my opinion) advice in the post

I have always been tought that one of the main goals when choosing a move is to make it as non-commital as possible (of course if there is some forced win or something then go for it, but I am talking about choosing a plan in a position like this). You want to leave yourself as many options as possible. Think about it before your every move - "do I really need to develop this peace to this square on THIS move? Maybe I can play another move and keep other options available?" In this particular example, Re8 is not very commital - the best place for the rook will almost certainly be on the e-file, so there is no reason to delay this move. b6, however, is commital - you don't yet know whether b6 or a6-->b5 will be better for you, so there is no reason to move that pawn yet. There are many examples of this rule, especially in the openings, where certain pieces are kept on their initial squares till the opponent commits to some plan, and only then developed to the best possible position. I think there is some similarity to playing in position or out of position in poker - the one who commits to some particular plan first essentially is playing out of position, as his opponent can then react accordingly (if he hasn't commited himself yet of course).

I am not sure if my message got through because after rereading it does sound complicated.. if you have any questions please ask

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06-07-2010 , 06:16 PM
Spoiler:
8...Bf5 instead of 0-0 is interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Douglas
Spoiler:
Maybe you could play a6 with the idea of b5. Qb6 (immediately or after trading on d4 was an option too).
I don't like exd4 as it opens Bc1 which now is completely inactive.
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06-07-2010 , 08:01 PM
After pushing the limits of "move in 3 days" time controls, my opponent played precisely the move I said I wasn't sure what to do about. What I didn't realize before is that 11. Bb5 isn't just annoying because it prevents Be6, it's also an active threat to win a pawn after 11. ... Bb7 12. Bxc6 Bxc6 13. dxe5 Ne8 (13. ... Nd7 14. Nxd5) and I'm down a pawn with a very cramped position. I have a bishop pair, he doesn't, but the position is NOT good. (I'm sure everyone ITT other than me already knows this, thanks to the spoiler text, or in most cases probably just seeing it to begin with).

So, now I have to try to find a better move than Bb7, or else accept that I've already dropped a pawn. The only other way to defend the knight on its current square is a queen move that solves nothing, after Bxc6 Qxc6 and again dxe5. Fortunately the knight isn't pinned to anything so there is one other resource that looks like it saves the pawn. Na5 attacks the queen, and after she moves I can go ahead and play exd5 and keep material equality.

The lines aren't great, I think I'm behind here, and after 11. ... Na5 12. Qa4 exd5 13. Nxd5 my position is awkward. I have an isolated pawn, he gets the knight into a powerful spot in the middle of the board, my rook doesn't have access to e8, and his pieces are very active. All that being said though, at least I'm not down a pawn without compensation, and 13. ... Bd7 looks promising to start trading off some things and relieving the pressure. The attack I was dreaming of now looks like a pipe dream, but I think I can work my way toward a drawable (if uncomfortable) endgame still. And it's not like I won't have any chance of getting the initiative back if he gives me an opening somewhere.

Moves so far:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 cxd5 5. e3 Nc6 6. Bd3 g6 7. Nge2 Bg7 8. O-O O-O 9. f3 e5 10. Qb3 b6 11. Bb5 Na5

Current position:
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06-07-2010 , 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by feedmykids
Just wanted to say I am basically a chess novice and this thread is really instructive/helpful to me, thanks for doing it!
Glad you're enjoying it! This is exactly why I started this thread, I thought it had the potential to be very instructive, both for me and others, so I'm glad to hear that it's working out!
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06-08-2010 , 08:42 AM
Spoiler:
BJJ turning into negative nancy because of a couple of threats I think after 12.Qa4 Black seems completely fine, maybe even a little better. He can play, for example, a6, Bd7 and Qe7 (or returning the N to c6).
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06-09-2010 , 11:25 AM
12. Qb4 exd4

I bought myself a move to save the pawn, now I do so. I'm still not thrilled with the position after 13. Nxd4 (and exd4 and Qxd4 probably still leave white with an edge, albeit a smaller one). I'd rather play those positions than be down a pawn with no compensation though.

Moves so far:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 cxd5 5. e3 Nc6 6. Bd3 g6 7. Nge2 Bg7 8. O-O O-O 9. f3 e5 10. Qb3 b6 11. Bb5 Na5 12. Qb4 exd4

Current Position:
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