Unless it's always in sight and you never leave it.

Better analogy. I can see a birdfeeder from my window as I sit at my desk. There is zero probability it is not there. There is also no probability that God does not exist or that life is not eternal.

It's common for people here to tell us we can't know. You are incorrect, as we keep saying. Some of us, do know. Instead of trying to convince me I am insane and my entire existence is an hallucination, just accept that you, yourself, do not know. Which is all you can know.

Let's leave aside the zero probability that God does not exist for the moment and focus on the second part: are you saying that even if its certain that there is a deity that created the universe, etc. etc. that it is also 100% that that god is the God that is described in the bible? There is 0% probability that that god could not be just ****ing with everyone and that there is no heaven, or there is only hell, or something else entirely? No chance that god could be a sick son of a bitch who gets off on playing with his play things minds? O% chance that he just wants you to think he's good, but he's really not?

exactly. even if there is 100% a god, the only reason you subscribe to the specific structure or "rules" of your belief is because of where you were born on the planet. there are so many variations of these "rules" in all different sections of theism, and all say they are 100% certain... so you're right and other beliefs are wasting their time?

heck there could be a God but no heaven, hell, or afterlife at all. perhaps god gives us a token to play the game of life, but after we pass we sink back into peaceful non-existence/non-thought.

i highly suggest people arguing against this very humble logic, read Thomas Keating and what he says about Mythic Membership. it's totally okay to have faith but to suggest you have it figured out to such degrees of scrutiny and certainty reflect mythic membership, a psychological term. seriously, keating wrote some great literature about the different areas of psychology, faith, spirituality and meditation.

it would serve some people itt well to challenge themselves as they go through life, never assuming they have things figured out with such (over)confidence

So what version of the bible says this? Or are you reading a book you got from the wiccan store?

Oh I forgot, there is no way that you are a real Christian if you believe this garbage.

ATTENTION! ATTENTION! This is guy or girl is a poser, not a believer in the true God or the bible. Do not believe anything they say if you are trying to get accuracy in regards to biblical truth. If you want made up fantasies then by all means believe them.

Hey Pletho, remember you promised me an answer to my actual question in my OP and not just a rehashing of how to get to heaven.

? did you only read the first sentence of my post or something?
Im clearly not interested in talking about the bible with you, you can ignore that part of the post.

bump for pletho

im just going to keep bringing up "Thomas Keating's Mythic Membership" writings about spirituality and perception until you check it out, your posts absolutely scream of it.

also youre dropping an absolute TON of judgments for someone who's savior never judged a single person and preached against judging others

(p.s. any response to the not-so-inspiring bible verses in the above post?)

I've never said this and never will. Not because some description of God isn't in the Bible, but because different people come away with different interpretations. God is as much the God described in the Bhagavad-Gita. What's also true is that He isn't any of those Gods, really, as He is ultimately unfathomable by anyone still in Time.
Yes, there is 0% probability of this.

I'd say there is a 100% chance of this. Not in totality, but much more than singing praise on a cloud or burning in hellfire or some such thing.

ZERO chance.

You ask these questions and imply that your are so different from God that you could be a "plaything." In a very real way, you are God, too. Or will be. It's all of our ultimate destiny.

Are you speaking to me? What "rules" do you think I subscribe to and why would I think I'm right and everyone else is wrong about whatever these rules are? Here's a rule: if your car takes unleaded and you put diesel fuel in it, it won't run very well - or at all most likely.

Discovering the so-called rules is just learning the way things work.

No, there can't.

I don't have faith. I wasn't born with enough character or courage to have faith. I have experience.

I don't have confidence, over or otherwise. I have certainty.

And I'm probably old enough to be at least your mother and possibly your grandmother. I did my searching. GL with yours.

With the bird feeder, anyone sitting with you would also agree that there's no probability that it's not there. But that is not the case with God, why do you think that is?

What are you tralking about? You have no clue what judging means biblically.

You can always make a judgement about what someone says or does. You cannot however judge their heart, because you do not know their true heart even if they tell you cause they could be lying.

You are always supposed to look at actions and words of people and make a judgement as to if it is true or not, or loving or not. I think you have a misunderstanding in words.

Jesus Christ made many judgements, I can list them for you if you would like, I think you are confusing judgements like if some one is worthy of eternal life and such which is clearly not my place but Gods and He has much to say about that in His word, and if I agree with His word then I am not making a judgement, I am just saying exactly what the word says.

Again I honestly think you really misunderstand what judgement is or you are mixing up two different types of judgements.

Basically the author picks up a number of claims that are made about god by religion. He analyzes them, picks them apart and shows a solution for them.

One of them beeing iirc the "jelaous god" . He states how absurd it is to think that god wants\needs to be worshipped by us, but how religious people need a god like that. [this is not his exact reasoning, i´m just keeping things short]

What i love about the book is the clearness and "bull****lesness".
You wont be reading passages like "and this is how the lord spoke to me".
If you read somth like that, be sure its meant ironic.
There is no condescending tone, not the "i know it better" , nor any advice "how things should be done". Its full of love. Ehm, u´ll know what i mean by "love" when u read it.

This is a book where you feel the author is a REAL person. I at least feel that in many books there is a lot of nonsense. I dont agree with everything the author says, but the guy is coherent.
The book is suited for religious Christians as well as atheists.

----

meh, sry if i´m not good at cliffnoting. I´m sure you´ll find some other reviews in the internet.
But maybe this perspective also helps from a fellow 2+2er, since us pkrplayers have some similarity in the way we think...

I sit with a lot of people in my life who do agree with me. But, I think it's like this park in downtown Denver. I was walking through it one day in the spring with a friend who had a paper due, we were cutting across it to the library.

It was a gorgeous morning, and the birds were going crazy, really so much singing you could hardly hear anything else and I wasn't talking just listening and my friend was walking and searching through his backpack. Anyway - we get into the library and up into a study room and I look out the window and wish I was still outside and say, "Weren't those birds incredible?"

You know where I am going. What birds? He never heard them at all. I couldn't hear much else.

But in fact, in his life, there simply were no birds because he didn't experience them. Interesting, I think. I mean, the sound was there, traveling into his ears just as into mine. But he had no memory at all of anything but the sound of traffic. His walk was songless.

No number of people who had songless mornings could ever convince me there was no song.

You're pretty good, I think. I just went and ordered it on your recommendation.

How much reservation do you have on this belief? like can you honestly say "i'm pretty sure this is how it is, but not 100%" ?


I guess the best analogy is this:

two grains of sand talking to one another. they're itty bitty morsels of sand, can't see more than a few feet each way.

Grain 1: How big do you think this beach is?
Grain 2: We're in the Grand Canyon. 100%.
Grain 1: Uhh... we could be in some kid's sandbox in a backyard in Jersey for all we know
Grain 2: There is zero chance we're anywhere but the South Pass of the Grand Canyon.


Pletho you're making a lot of judgments for a Christian.


Good Judging: You see it's cold outside so you put on a coat before leaving.

Bad Judging: You determine someone (whom you don't know, never met) has a poor understanding of life.

Way to give some lame anecdote, all the while, missing his point completely or just plain avoiding it. Either way, I dont know why you bother.

also praxsing to answer your question i wasnt responding to u ive been dealing with pletho itt

but i do heartily object to the fact that there is absolute no chance there is a god but no afterlife... what if a god created us and got bored and we're just kinda on our own.

there is absolutely a possiblity that there is a higher being(s) that are no more perfect than us that created us. for all we know we could be a universe in a marble on the dresser of some little kid. the idea that people are coming to 100% conclusions on answers to these questions is like saying one knows the largest number (infinity is not a number)... its such an infinite realm we should be humble in open-mindedness and reserve at least a morsel of doubt.

Word IQ gives two definitions to "meditate":

1) Meditation usually refers to a state of extreme relaxation and concentration, in which the body is generally at rest and the mind quieted of surface thoughts. Several major religions include ritual meditation; however, meditation itself need not be a religious or spiritual activity. Most of the more popular systems of meditation are of Eastern origin.


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2) Another form of meditation is more closely akin to prayer and worship, wherein the practitioner turns spiritual thoughts over in the mind and engages the brain in higher thinking processes. The goal in this case is the receipt of spiritual insights and new understanding.

I meant the second definition not the Eastern one.

That's fine, although I suspect they are more closely related than you think, but I'm not an expert.

However, what reason is there is to think that the "spiritual insight" and "new understanding" could not be 100% formed in your brain?

Because its not an isolated process. The Word is required and life experience helps.

Well, you can object as heartily as you wish, but it won't alter the fact that your life, like everyone's, is eternal. Not after you die, but right now. I understand being in the place where all these thought experiments seem to carry equal weight. But what is, is. It would be more correct to say there is afterlife but no God, than the other way around. (Depends on how you define "God.")

THE RIGHT TEMPORAL LOBE AND ASSOCIATED LIMBIC LOBE STRUCTURES AS THE BIOLOGICAL INTERFACE WITH AN INTERCONNECTED UNIVERSE

Arouet and Splendour - you both might like this paper. BTW, the guy is (was, maybe?) an atheist. From the abstract:

Yes I'm familiar with Dr. Morse. I ran a thread on him a couple of years ago.

What I've been posting about above Arouet is summarized here. It outlines almost exactly my understanding and what I feel that I have experienced: http://www.wcg.org/lit/disc/14hearing.htm

To make matters more interesting I recently met a Presbyterian hospital chaplain while calling on a hospitalized relative. The spirit he exuded was so beautiful and compassionate it seemed to me that God had placed him right there just so I could make the intellectual connection and recognize one of his more perfectly completed works in progress.