I don't know what is being reported in the U.S. but today I read about the nth attack on Christians since the revolution. 9 people killed last night 6 Muslims and 3 Christians, over 100 injured.

Can somebody fill me in on the hate? It seems like it has always existed and it is fundamentally a religious problem, and somehow Mubarak had control over it that the Egyptian army doesn't.

To some extent there has always been some tension between Islam and Christianity ever since the geopolitical struggles between the nations (not countries) adhering to them during the middle-ages.

A lot of the tension also comes as an aftermath of the Egyptian coup in '52, when the revolutionaries played partially on Arabic nationalism and Jihadism to gain momentum. This in contrast to the Egyptian nationalism which had been more common amongst the anti-British movements earlier.

Oh dear, it's THEM again

I read this forum much more than I post on it and I tend to agree heartily with most of your posts, but this sounds like a specious avoidance of the facts.

Christians are hated in Egypt because Islam instructs its acolytes to hate. I am no fan of Christianity, but even a glance at the conduct of muslims around the world tells the same story; violence,violence and more viloence, often directed towards infidels and heretics. You downplay central role of Islam to a rediculous degree by saying, "to some extent there has always been some tension....". 1952 is a blip on the radar historically, the British control of the region did not last anything like as long as Ottoman (Islamic) rule in the area.

Koran 2:216: Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.

Koran 5:54: O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people.

The Koran is pretty explicit really.

No, I am sorry...but that is much, much to simple. The situation in Egypt has been extremely complex and there is no way you can reduce it to a few Quran lines and "blaming it muslims".

The coup is important because Arab Nationalism had been used as rhetorical tool to aid the coup...which essentially reduced the impact of Egyptian nationalism...one might say that this was the biggest modern step towards Egypt culturally speaking becoming an Arab-Islamic nation (as opposed to "the nation of Egypt").

However, In the aftermath of the coup Egypt was given a strictly secular constitution, and religious parties were outlawed. This fuelled civil strife which again gave power to extremist islamic ideals in the Egyptian society...this kind of situation is (as we know very well from the last ten years) ideal for small extremist groups to gain huge influence.

As a retort, the government has been harsh on religious assembly, but one can't deny they have trampled the hardest on the copts through varies pieces of "hassling" legislation, like restricting pig farming or making it very difficult to maintain churches...to some extent probably to appease anti-Christian sentiments in the populace, and to some extent likely because it was infected by these sentiments itself.

It becomes very difficult to claim these actions are merely the result of "Islam" when we know they are the result of a government who has outlawed the islamic factions from politics for nearly six decades however.

As for cultural trends...the biggest islamic faction, the muslim brotherhood, adopted a non-violence policy in the 70s. It becomes very difficult to blame "Islam" as some sort of whole, when we know the muslim brotherhood is not a particularly violent organization...however smaller extremist groups still exist and operate in Egypt today.

In the coming years it will be interesting to see how it pans out. Hopefully moderate democratical Islam can show that extremist Islam is a misguided effort.

Maybe an analogous example can serve as a better testament to my view:

I don't think the Quran is a particularly nice book, in the same sense I don't think the Bible is a particularly nice book. Noted the Bible has a commandment saying you shouldn't kill, but it becomes academical when the same section of the bible lists hundreds of offense you should stone people to death for, and who you should war against.

I also think extremist Christians are partially to blame for the US employing the death sentence and to some extent moderate Christians for not speaking out more (even though quite alot of them do). However...I don't blame Christianity for the death sentence being employed in the US, that is much to simple to be a correct answer. Rather some of its practitioners are a small piece of the puzzle.

(Let it be noted that people might disagree with me on the death penalty and that is fine, I merely used this example to illustrate my views).

So you make the argument but refuse to accept the conclusions. I can, and will blame it on muslims, because Islamic societies the world over systematically persecute Chrisitans, Egypt is no exception. You cant seriously believe that this began with the installation of a secular government (in a few countries) in the middle of the twentieth century. That fails to explain the rampant persecution of other religious groups throughout the Islamic world.

WRT to those "few Koran lines": The Koran is a book so pornographic it makes the Bible look fit for human consumption (almost). People are taught to recite it ad-naseum, from an early age, in many muslim countries. OTOH most "Christians"dont know their old-testament from their elbows. Don't try to pretend these Koranic verse are not taken very seriously indeed.

This part is just plainly false im afraid. The brotherhood includes organizations like Hamas under its umbrella! You'll be telling me they're "largely secualar", like James Clapper, next

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFTV6qPh1u4

Also you say "this is much too simple to be the correct answer". Most often the simple answer is the right one IMO.

And one more thing: I see a forceful group of people (lets call them the Dawkins crowd) who attack Christianity vociferously. I consider their arguments correct. However as soon as Islam rears its even uglier head they all head for the hills and start talking about "socio-politico-cultural" issues. Or how we "misunderstand" Islam. Or how the people soliciting murder on the streets of London (in MY Fukk1ng country) are "not representative", even though surveys show otherwise!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=det7TUsLy8U

As far as I was aware Islam and Christianity are as peaceful as you choose them to be. There so filled with contradictions and different messages you can be as peaceful or hateful as you so desire.
In that respect; I read only been 125-150 years since Islam became very angry and hateful, when, in respect to Western and Christian advances and power some angry Arabic muslims (so to speak) collected only the aggressive peaces and used that as their main source.
In that sense, it is quite hateful.
but Christianity can be to.
Whats happening in egypt is more like tame_deuces says. Even though N.Irland and RepIrld problems are seemingly rested in religion, only a fool would say it is religion not culture etc.. that is the problem (I see how this is very different, but it is indicatitive of the problems in what your sayign.)

[QUOTE=Le Boeuf;26487703]As far as I was aware Islam and Christianity are as peaceful as you choose them to be. [QUOTE]

Yes, there is some truth to that, but in the case of Islam not so much. Historical Koranic exegesis has given more weight to the later (more violent) instructions in the Koran. They say the later the "revelations" abbrogate the earlier ones. Conviniently for them, Mo' had become a satanic warlord and ethnic cleanser par-excellance by then. I dont know of any such concept in Christian scriptural reading. If anything they argue that the new testament is more peaceful and moral than the old. (personally I think thats bollox)

Also, I believe the Islamic calendar begins in the year Mo' took Medina (or was it Mecca) and founded his proto-Islamic state. That is illusttrative of the religion in general I think.

I find your misrepresentation of my expressed views to be rather insulting. I try to explain a complex cultural, ethnical and religious conflict using carefully researched knowledge and you serve me some crap about me having said it all started with the coup? That's just plain nonsense.

If this was a thread on the logic of Islam or the message of the Quran, your points would have some validity...but newsflash...it is not!

This is only one factor here. By denying this, you are treading very dangerous ground.

Isolated focus on single factors in ecological/cultural systems can cause grave harm. Your solution might very well end up as Australian rabbits.

Stop fooling yourself into thinking it has anything to do with"political correctness", and start assessing argument instead of persona.

Islam is very clear on what you should do and how you should act and view others not of the faith. Crystal clear. Jack 0'Clubs quotes are just the tip of the iceberg.

Christianity does have some lines, such as stoning adulterers, but these are strongly, strongly moderated by the New Testament. Islam has no such thing...their book is the Christian Old Testament plus a "new testament" that backs up the Old Testament 100%, and goes further into violence and the provision of specific examples of how to live, act and think.

Frankly, tame_deuces, your position is absurd.

I have no idea what imaginary posts I have written in your head, so I think you will have to carry that debate on with yourself.

Might I politely suggest that you start a thread about the Quran and do it in, that way you will also be on-topic.

Thank you.

What the hell man? The OP asked, in a Religion, God and Theology forum, the following question:

Your initial answer, however much you liked it, is more off topic than mine or anyone else's. It would have been appropriate in the history forum.

Have you ever read the Koran, or books written by Muslim women such as Infidel? The fundamental, root cause of this problem is the Koran's attitude to other religions. It encourages scorn and distance from other religions. Honor killings of one's own daughter/sister are not uncommon among Muslim men, who would rather kill their daughter than have them marry a Christian. Their own flesh and blood. You think is surprising these same people would attack a Christian church? Do you think they kill their daughter because of the coup of '52? Pakistan didn't have a coup of '52, and the same thing goes on there.

That you do not see this, and want to trace it back to geopolitical struggles in that particular country, is amusing. And off topic. Please start a thread in the history forum if you wish to talk about history.

Thank you.

Ok, I have to intervene. I find td's posts very informative, helping me put perspective on things. I don't live under a rock and I get the whole idea about hate between different religious groups.

However, the copts are the indigeniuos peoples of Egypt, an Egyptian told me this once. The attacks are something I did not understand in this context. Having td explain the differences between Egyptian and Arabic nationalism is very useful to me.

As far as history vs RGT goes, every thread gets offcourse here, and while quotes from the Quran give a reason, it's td's explanations that help me understand why this is happening now rather than always as the Quran'd have it.

Interestingly...Arab-nationalists tried to attack museums during the recent revolution, likely in an effort to destroy distinctly Egyptian heritage.

The similarity to fascists in Italy trying to destroy medieval and renaissance Italian culture prior to WW2 is ominous (the fascists regarded the Roman empire as the rightful "cradle" of Italy, and despised medieval city state Italy).

It is impossible to understand religion or theology without history. The question asked was about the impact of religious ideas on historical events. Tame_deuces is bringing in some of the historical context to those events so that we can more accurately understand the impact of religion. How is that off-topic?

Td, do you think Egypt could turn into an Islamic state? Given history, you'd think that an Islamic Egypt would intensify the situation in the region A LOT.

I don't have any problem with td's comments. I am responding in kind to his bizarre attacks on mine and jackofclubs comments (read above), to demonstrate how silly his attacks are. I succeeded.

As for history, blaming coups or governments is missing the point. This is religion fueled violence that has nothing to do with government. It has been going on for centuries, both before and after Western interference and dictators. The West merely secularized and allowed greater religious freedoms in Egypt for a time, diminishing the normal practice of belligerently intolerant Islam. And dictators suppressed disorder, violently. But it's who they are. For example, having a read of how Christians have historically been treated before colonial times (much more at the link):

As Edward William Lane put it, describing his 1825 visit to Egypt: Nothing has changed. Coups are irrelevant, as are governments. This is the core tenets of Islam in action, it is the history of their people for generations. It is who they are, and they cannot be different, because the correct attitude toward other religions and non believers is demonstrated and written in unequivocal terms many, many times in their holy books. It is a central theme. It is no more complicated than that. Anway, I'm done. Enjoy the kool-aid!

I think this is almost inevitable tbh...a big reason the regime fell is because of the secular constitution and the oppression of religion, and the support of the muslim brotherhood in Egypt is pretty huge.

However the biggest muslim factions in Egypt are a bit special, in that they are pro-democratic and much milder on sharia than other certain theocratic counterparts in other parts of the middle-east...and neither was the recent revolution heavy on "religious rhetoric"...rather the typical buzzwords were "democracy & justice"...so as of yet it doesn't really point to any "hardliner" internal religious policy-makers gaining much momentum.

The regional politics which your question is about is much more hot territory: Relations to Israel is almost bound to deteriorate, and already now Egypt is signalling that it wants to open up the Egypt-Gaza border...with 1973 relatively fresh in mind for many of the old boys of both Egypt and Israel that can get ugly pretty quick I think. The last 10 years has seen extremist muslims gaining a lot of momentum in the middle east, and I think we have to be naive to think they won't join the bandwagon if that train starts rolling...which in a worst case scenario means we can be seeing a combination of the Palestinian geo-political conflict of the 60s-80s and jihadism...which won't be be pretty.

Well Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms (delete as appropriate) Deuces, I dont believe I am mischarecterizing your argument. You are saying (AFAIK) that pan arab nationalism and the installation, and susequent capitiulation, of secular dictatorships is of greater importance than Islam itself when considering the persecution of copts.

However, history and geography attest to the fact that it is in fact Islamic doctrine which is the proximate cause of the persecution.

Firstly as Ping Clown points out, with quotes, suppression of Christians has been ever present in the region, for centuries. Therefore to blame it mainly on 20th century events is incorrect, or a least overly simplisitc.
Also, Christians in non-arab, Islamic countries such Indonesia and Pakistan also suffer terrible persecution. In fact a Christian Pakistani politician was recently assassinated for championing reform of blasphemy laws. Note that in Pakistan insulting Islam is a capital offence! These are not Arab cultures so we must look to another source for the strife; Islam itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12617562


As an Englishman I feel it is my cultural duty to use Churchill quotes, and this seems like an opportune time to do so

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

Ahhhh; Good old Winston.

Ive got to say WOW to this bit! Arab Nationalism has nothing to do with the museum attacks. The destruction of Egyptian heritage is once again Islamically (if thats a word) inspired. Why? Because ancient pharaonic cultures were not Islamic, therefore they need to be destroyed; Egyptology is a direct insult to Islam.

But I didnt suggest any solution. You weren't about to do the old "you're just like Hitler" routine on me where you? You little tinker!

Anyway, just to put the kybosh on your claim that the Muslim Brotherhood are non-violent, democratic types here is an article from a spokesman of theirs saying the USA<Osama Bin Laden, and that terrorism rules OK!

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5269.htm

I'm curious as to how many of you know Muslims in real life. Many of my friends are Muslim, and I've even lived with 2 different Muslims in college and in med school. These are not scary people who want to kill me for being a Jew. Blaming the Koran solely for the issues in Egypt seems to miss the point. There is clearly a lot more going on there.

Also, I've been mostly away for a bit, but there at least used to be a Coptic Egyptian who posted here. Aiegyptos or something. Is he still around? I bet he has a lot to say on this topic (even though I will likely disagree with it all).

Fine, then compare the Muslims to the Jews. Now what's your argument once you can't bring up the New Testament?

None.

Do you actually live in a Muslim country? Muslims are very different people in their home country, where they have the power, custom, and often Sharia law on their side, as compared to being students or first generation immigrants somewhere else. It would be like saying "KKK members from South Carolina are really nice people, I lived with a couple in college in NY and they didn't want to beat me up or anything."

Take your girlfriend on a walk in Saudi Arabia in a short dress and see what happens to her. Then have the exact same Saudis live on a college campus in the US where they are a minority, and see how they treat the women in short dresses. They are like different people. Unless you actually know Muslims from living in these countries, I doubt your experience is enlightening. It is likely the opposite.

Also realize that many Muslims in the West do not even know the very basics about their own religion. For example Hardball47 on these forums thought I was lying when I said that Muhammed slept with a nine year old!!! Any actual Muslim would know that instantly; Aisha was a big part of his life.

Again,
Muslim = OT (somewhat nasty) + someone who confirmed and took the OT way further, and made it extremely personal (very nasty)
Jew = OT (somewhat nasty) +
Christian = OT (somewhat nasty) + NT (exceedingly nice)

I certainly don't think Jews are saints. Those who practice the religion are far nastier than Christians. Some of their attitudes are disgusting, in line with OT morality. And they have similar superiority based beliefs woven into their religion as Islam - and look how they treat the Palestinians.

As the OP, I'll say that I know one Egyptian Arabic Muslim irl, who wouldn't mind having a female Christian president. He said it by himself, I wouldn't be able to form a question that would entail this answer. Yeah, he's a nice guy, one of those people you cannot picture being angry.