Logic 101:

All people have flaws.
Jesus is a person.
Therefore Jesus has flaws.

SixT4, nobody is arguing that your opinion isn't your opinion and shouldn't be taken objectively as others opinions. I am asking your opinion.

This logic fails because Jesus was not a person in the same sense as people are. Jesus was born from the Holy Spirit and was the Son on God.

Sure. I have never, ever heard a sound argument for taking the gospels as fact. And I do not believe that Jesus was perfect, miraculous, or divine.

Your response?

There is a difference between proof and a sound argument. Please stop posting nothing but nonsense.

What is your reason why you believe Christ was not perfect, based on what you have heard about Him.

I gave you my opinion. I said I didn't believe he was perfect, according to my own standards of perfection.

If Jesus is one of the following people, then Jesus may in fact be considered perfect by me:

I don't need a reason to not believe something. I need a reason to believe something. There is no reason to believe that Jesus was perfect just because a book says he was. Surely you don't need a reason to not believe that Athena was born by springing from Zeus's head as a grown woman wearing a coat of armor, since the story is so ridiculous that it doesn't matter if a book from over 2000 years ago says it's true. Right?

So what is your reason for believing that Jesus was perfect? Because an old book says so? Is that it?

People generally aren't perfect, so it's more like "what is your reason to believe Jesus was perfect?"

Oh yeah, nothing really. Unless you want to say "because the Gospels say he is".

But then again, you were using Jesus' supposed perfection as an argument for the Gospels being fact. So until we determine whether the Gospels are fact, we cannot use them as an argument for Jesus' supposed perfection.

Uh oh!

Your opinion can be demonstrated wrong though. It is like me saying i believe fireworks are safe. I would be wrong in having this opinion because many people go to the hospital every year because of fireworks.

How can my opinion be demonstrated to be wrong? I consider Hayley Williams to be the definition of perfection. In my opinion. To me, she would be classified as "the perfect person".

Now if perfection could be applied objectively then you could try to show that I was wrong.

I am not claiming objective absolute perfection, because I don't think such a thing can be correctly claimed.

Gunth, this is precisely what I asked you not to do. I figured that this "jesus perfection" thing was your argument for the Gospels being fact, and that you'd cling onto it for about 3 pages until everybody just gave up.

We're like 1/3 of the way there.

You have not provided

a) A sound argument for Jesus' perfection or
b) A sound argument for why this makes the Gospels pure fact.

You are believing He is not perfect. That is something...

Yes if someone believes this to be true, i should have a reason why i don't.

So now if something is ridiculous, that is proof it is false? You know everyone has their own opinion on what ridiculous is right?

Not he's not. He's merely not believing that he is perfect.

Although he probably also believes it is likely that Jesus was imperfect due to basically everyone having flaws. Hence w/o evidence to the contrary it is likely Jesus had flaws.

Of course, he might also find this discussion completely hilarious, since perfection is arbitrary and subject to one's own personal opinion. As is the definition of a flaw.

Give it up Gunth. Plz.

Uh duh... because these are not what i was trying to provide.

I am trying to provide this for you:

Once again a sound argument is not proof.
Once again i am asking your opinion based on an opinion of yours. I am not responding to any more of your posts today after i demonstrate why the people you consider perfect can be demonstrated as not perfect. You guys have not demonstrated why Jesus was not perfect.

Either your 12 years old SixT4, or your not. I have my opinion based on what i know about you, but there is a chance you can prove my opinion false.

Gunth you seem to be arguing for Jesus being perfect.

And that this implies the Gospels are fact.

You haven't made a good argument that either is likely.

LOL like this is my fault you have been ridiculous in this thread. You had your chance, Tex's turn.

In what way was I ridiculous? I merely disagreed that you could say Jesus was perfect because:

a) The definition of perfection is arbitrary and cannot be said to be universal. What is considered perfect by one person might not be considered perfect by another.
b) There is no significant evidence to say Jesus was perfect, and hence I cannot say that he was.

If you disagree with any of these points, feel free to show how perfection can be applied in a universal, objective way, and also provide me with significant evidence of said perfection in Jesus.

Wow SixT4, wow. I am not trying to have a universal discussion. This is a personal one. Based on a personal opinion of yours.

Yes the significant evidence is that there is no significant evidence to say He is not perfect. Your perfect, or your not.
Once again...

Okay, so after all that other nonsense and dodging of the question, we're still at the same point, which is:

1. Gunth does believe that Christ was perfect because the Gospels tell him that Christ was perfect.
2. The Gospels show Gunth how to become more like the perfect Christ, therefore Gunth feels it is logical to assume the Gospels are fact.

Does that about sum this up?

There is no significant evidence to say that my neighbour is not perfect.

Hence my neighbour is perfect.

So tell me, why should I follow Jesus instead of my neighbour? My neighbour is still alive, is of a convenient proximity, and often gives me tea and biscuits.

Where is Jesus' tea and biscuits? Well?!? I bet there are no passages in the Bible promising eternal tea and biscuits.

Neighbour 1 - 0 Jesus

Horrible comparison. I have absolutely no info on your neighbor. Therefore my opinion is based on absolutely nothing. And i have absolutely nothing to go by to demonstrate why your opinion is false.

All the info I have on Jesus are some dubious writings from 2000 years ago, which weren't even written by people who personally had contact with him.

I have no idea whether it's factual or not.

And you do have info to go on. I can assure you my neighbour is indeed perfect. Plenty of people in my town think my neighbour is perfect. Whenever you need a reference as to why my neighbour is perfect, just read this post.

But it is okay for you to spout this universally.

You get me a book on your neighbor that tells basically every single thing about the man, i can guarantee you i can demonstrate why he is not perfect. Ignored, even you must have better ways to spend your time.

Ok. Bye Gunth. You win, I lose.

Vaguely.

There is a huge difference between your #1, and the factual #1. I believe Christ was perfect because the Gospels tell me so, the Gospels tell everything about Him, and after putting serious effort into walking in His shoes myself, i have been shown that it is true.

#2, If i have been shown how Christ is perfect, should i not consider the words to be true? I have no reason not to. So it would be illogical if i didn't.

Perhaps another atheist who can stay honest through this discussion would like to give this a try.