i asked why Jesus didnt write, not why God didnt write. can we stay on track here plz, for one time? we KNOW jesus didnt write any of the books of the bible. theres not a single person, neither theist nor atheist nor anyone else who claims he did. im asking why not. if your answer is that his divinity helped him write through other people then you're presupposing what is in question. youre starting from the position that youre correct, and arguing from there. do you see how that is problematic?

Wrong. If you think this is true, then it's more than just your religious beliefs that need examination.

seriously. the mental gymnastics religious people do never ceases to astound me.

you can die without suffering.

besides, its the people who lived 2000 years ago who were obsessed with torture, death, and vicarious redemption (i.e. scapegoating.) isnt it amazing that god has the very same traits as the ignorant desert dwellers of a millenium ago?

When he has to write, he's human and when he has to walk on water, he's God? When he has to rise from the dead, he's God but when he's getting beat, he's human?

boink

Which is an obvious contradiction.

Enthralling indeed, that Jesus can be completely human and God. But of course, it's not Christians that decided to say "hey, let's say Jesus is both human and God. Then we can win all arguments!" Rather, it was the Bible.

This argument is another off topic one...

I think the correct word is paradox (don't you think our understanding is quite limited as humans?). Look at a chunk of ice and a glass of water. One is a solid, the other a liquid. Yet both are H2O, one and the same. Of course, this is only an illustration, not a proof...

I'm talking about the sense that the Bible uses it in. Have you studied that kind of stuff? I haven't, but I know enough to know that that's what Jesus means when he says death.

I thought being a christian for 20 years, you would understand that because Jesus and God the father are one person, had Jesus written scripture with his hands, the resulting text would be the same as what we have now, because God wrote it through other people. The only difference are the hands that write it.

Also, you ask why didn't Jesus write it as if it's a bad thing that He didn't. I don't understand that.

That is only your opinion that God is "obsessed with torture, death, and vicarious redemption." The Bible never says that (in fact, the opposite, God is love), and you have no support for it. God is just, that's why we get what we deserve as sinners. You think God likes to send us to a place where we are tortured? Preposterous!

This is off topic again...and I thought you were the one that said to stay on topic. You are basically giving arguments as to why Christianity is so ridiculous, but that's not even the subject of discussion here.

And you never answered my question about your former relationship with God, and what that looked like.

not much to say. it was fairly stereotypical. very heartfelt belief. never thought id become an atheist, ever ever ever. and said so, and felt quite sincere about that. thought i was to be a living example of the goodness of christianity. to that end, was as good a person as possible. studied the bible on a nearly daily basis. had discussions on a consistent basis with other christians.

i prayed every single night. asking for things such as "strength and guidance and patience." never anything material. i was very assured in myself that i would go to heaven, as my belief was genuine, and god would "know my heart."

is that a complete enough picture to answer your question or do you want more? as i said, its almost stereotypical. i was very much how you might imagine i was. i thought god and jesus were awesome.

you where a christian for 20 years== dont you know once a believer always a believe =eternal salvation, once a christian always a christian==

hallelujah!!

the phyical suffering inflicted on Jesus by man shows mans wickedness =Gods punishment on Jesus was when He laid on His Son the sins of the world==

and jesus is god dont forget. so we really could say god was punishing himself for the sins of the world.

at this point you might think im going to disagree, but no. if the christian god exists, he should punish himself for the ills of his creation. he did a lousy job.

Interesting. So what happened that changed your mind?

Glad to see you admit that it's the Bible that set up the paradox. You need really narrow blinders to ignore contradictions this big.

Another Christian Hit & Run (or should I say Miss & Run?) attempt? I don't think so.

More condescending remarks from a theist who thinks believing gives him special knowledge above the others. Shocker.

Yeah, I've studied it. I'm 33 now and was a Christian until I was 24. I studied "this stuff" and came to a different conclusion than you did. Why is it you're right and I'm wrong? And on what basis can you say your argument that Jesus meant death=suffering is better than another believer's argument that Jesus meant death=death?

There are no properties of H2O that say it must be liquid or solid.

On the other hand, one of the properties of a human is that we have finite knowledge. One of the properties of God is that he is omniscient. These two things are mutually exclusive. Was Jesus omniscient? If so then he was not fully human. If not then he was not fully God.

Thus, a paradox, a product of our (as you said) finite knowledge.

Hey, I wasn't the one who said lets keep it on topic, it was the creator of this thread. Besides, I gave my argument. There's nothing I need to run from really.

I said, "I haven't" studied that kind of stuff. I put myself on the same or lower ground as you (turns out i must be on the lower ground because I haven't studied it, in a higher education setting that is). Special knowledge! Oh please...I have no special knowledge in comparison to you, and never said that. I don't remember being so arrogant.

Burden of proof fallacy.

Wow, you successfully dodged every point I made with rhetoric. As a matter of fact, the only parts you edited out of my quotes were my arguments!

No, it's not a paradox, it's a contradiction. To see this, answer my question. Was Jesus omniscient? I really want an answer to this question.

it was no one moment, or event. this was a 3-4 year process. i suppose it began when all of the christians around me said the bible precluded people of other faith from going to heaven. then i read through all the passages, and couldnt argue against their claim. i found it arbitrary for god to give salvation based on geography (as most people are the religion of the society they are raised in.) i still was a beliver at this point, but insights like this built over the years...at the same time i was getting a degree in philosophy. getting an education and having more of an understanding of humans and history and the history of religion ultimately led me to believe that its men who make religion to suit their own purposes.

plus all the arguments FOR belief are incredibly weak. the most convincing argument ive heard through the years is that theists have noted the universal constants seem fine tuned for life...and that if any one of the 'dials' were changed even a microscopic amount, the universe would not be fit for life. still, this amounts to nothing more than a "God in the gaps" argument. and "God did it" is still not a good answer. but its still a good question for astrophysicists and theoretical physicists to try and figure out.