Wow, with Hashem ( "G-d" ) as my witness I am not Trinitarian. I can see that Hasatan has darkened your heart that you can't see the truth. You have no idea of who I am because the truth is not in you; for if the truth were in you, you would know the truth, but you don't know the truth because I am not a Trinitarian!

Sovereign Adonai: May this human being represented by "Alter2Ego" be led to the truth of the gospel of Yeshua HaMashiach and the "One True G-d", the "G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" and have mercy on her (his?) soul.

Amen.

Spoken like a true supersessionist. "YHWH's" conventant was with the Jews. Yeshua ( "Jesus" ) was a Torah observing Jew and so was Paul who wrote many of the New Testament epistles.

You have made the "Word of G-d" ( a.k.a. the "bible" ) invalid because of your Jehovah's Witness' tradition. What's "my tradition"?

Spoken in a dead language, written down in ancient language, translated to modern language to be interpreted 50,000 different ways by men who can't agree on the color of piss.

Sounds like a divine plan to me.

You've misquoted me, just like when you've misquoted the "Word of G-d" ( as in "the bible" ) which you think you cherish, but not in knowledge, but in ignorance of the "One True G-d", "YHWH", and in ignorance of the True Mashiach, Yeshua. Jehovah's Witnesses worship "Jehovah", not the "One True G-d", for any practicing Jew ( who worships Hashem ) knows the name of G-d was not "Jehovah". "Jehovah" is the false G-d you worship and Jehovah's Witnesses are not in any way whatsoever, "G-d's organization" on earth; if anything, the Watch Tower Society is influenced heavily by ha-Satan. You think you are doing "G-d's work", but in reality, you are leading people away from the "true gospel of Jesus Christ" that leads to life.

Almost all modern day "Christian Trinitarians" are not pagan. Jews are still Hashem's chosen people. Once again, you're misusing biblical literature, but even if you weren't, you're doing this without much love or compassion.

Are you so ignorant of Hebrew and who uses that language?

Some might think this is a false dichotomy from reading the text of Jn 5:18 !



No. In fact, this is one reason the doctrine of the Trinity can be rejected; however, you must realize that the language of the formulation of the Trinity may be inaccurate but the portrayal that Hashem, "G-d" and the Ruach HaKodesh ( "Holy Spirit" ) are all "divine" or at the very least "on the same side" is what is at issue here. The other question is: what was the purpose of the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity?

One of the other passages that convinced me that Yeshua ( technically, "the Logos" ) was not as great as the Father was Gen 41:39-40, but that passage also convinced me that Yeshua was "YHWH in human form."
I put my trust and faith in the words of Yeshua because he has the "words of eternal life" as the "Rock" stated in Jn 6:68. One should be careful though; those words you've cited are in English, but Yeshua spoke Aramaic and/or Hebrew.

Now that I've answered you sincerely with the best of my understanding of the biblical text, perhaps you can be so kind to answer some questions, too?

You can use the NWT or any English translation that is "reasonable" ( you be the judge! ) to answer some questions here:

1) Who is speaking in Rev 1:8 ?

2) Who is speaking in Rev 21:6-7 ?

3) Who is speaking in Rev 22:12-13 ?

4) Who is speaking in Rev 1:17-18 ?

5) Are you sure your answers are "correct"?

Did I say Hebrew was dead?

Apologies for being so terse and rude!

Yes, of course there's almost nobody that speaks Aramaic today, but there was a time Aramaic was the lingua franca of Near East. [ Eventually Greek became the lingua franca of the Near East and explains why the vast majority of NT manuscripts are in Greek; now, English is arguably the lingua franca. ] There is a close affinity between Hebrew or paleo-Hebrew and Aramaic, and arguably the modern Hebrew alphabet is essentially derived from Aramaic; however, there are several differences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblica...aic_and_Hebrew

PART 1 OF 3

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
You just presented Evasive Answer #1. I didn't ask you what some might think. I asked you a direct question about what you believe. Your evasion of such a simple question again indicates you are a Trinitarian-in-denial.

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
You just presented Evasive Answer #2. I'm not interested in speculations regarding who penned the book of John. It's in the Bible and labeled as the book of John. You used John 5:18 in a failed attempt at proving Jesus is equal to God, and in the process, you relied on the words of the apostate Jews. Now, all of a sudden, after I showed you Jesus contradicting those same people in the very next verse (John 5:19), you decide to regurgitate this nonsense about the book of John may not have actually been written by John.

That's not what this is about. This is about the credibility of the apostate Jews that were accusing Jesus Christ of being equal to God. You were the one who introduced the book of John into this conversation; remember? Don't trying to dance your way out by changing the topic to: "there's no proof the book of John was written by John."

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
Show me where the Bible says John, the writer of the book bearing his name, believed Jesus to be equal to God? Below is John quoting Jesus Christ.

"You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the father, because The Father is GREATER THAN I am." (John 14:28)


QUESTIONS #1 to MANGLER241: Do you understand what's meant by "greater than"? Look at the words above in the scriptural quotation that are in all caps, bold, italics, and underline (I enhanced them in every way possible). That's Jesus Christ speaking. And that's John quoting him. The same John that you said believed Jesus to be equal to God.


QUESTIONS #2 to MANGLER241: According to your speculations, John believed Jesus to be equal to God. Does Jesus' own words—which John quoted from John 14:28—support your claim that John believed such a thing?



1st TIME ASKING.

PART 2 OF 3

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
You just gave Evasive Answer #3. I asked you a direct question, as follows: "When the apostate Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal to God, did he agree with them?" I then directed you to Jesus' words at John 5:19 where he told the apostate Jews he could only do what he saw the Father doing—indicating he is subservient. Not only that, I gave you the quotation of him saying at John 14:28 that the Father is greater than he. That's him in his own words saying he is not equal to Jehovah. What do you do with the info from the Bible you claim you respect? You revert to speculations and semantics and proceed to tell this forum about Genesis 41:39-40 and why you are convinced Jesus was Jehovah in human form.



you are now playing the game of Artful Dodger, refusing to answer direct questions that are based on scriptures. You are dodging, running from my questions, now that you realize the verses I brought to your attention (John 5:19 and John 14:28) debunk the Trinity.


You've shown you are willing to raise doubts about who penned the book of John--which suggests you are willing to attack any part of the Bible that does not line up with your Trinitarian thinking. You are willing to attack the credibility of the Bible itself in order for you to prove that YOU—not the Bible—are the source of wisdom from Jehovah.


CONCLUSION: You are a Trinitarian, sure enough. You proved it once again. But more than that, you've shown that you have no regard for what the Bible really says. It's all about what you choose to believe, and to heck with the scriptures. As you see it, the scriptures are dispensable; your high-minded ideas and opinions are not. But you get up in here accusing Jehovah's Witnesses of heresy! I suggest you take a hard look in the mirror.

PART 3 OF 3

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:

"Now that I've answered you sincerely," you said. You're kidding; right? I asked you three direct questions and presented you with scriptures where you could find the answers, and instead of answering ANY of the three questions, you played Artful Dodger and evaded.

Look at Question #3 above. That was your last chance to show intellectual honesty. Instead, you again raised doubt about the scriptures by hinting that the English translation of the words I used at John 14:28 (where Jesus said: "The Father is greater than I am") might be an inaccurate translation because Jesus spoke Aramaic and/or Hebrew. You didn't come right out and say it, but that's what you're hinting.

So there you go, again attacking the Bible when it suits you. Keep in mind that you quote from the same Bible that you're now hinting is incorrectly translated into English. In other words, whenever you quote verses that you THINK prove whatever falsehood you believe, the portions you quote are accurate English translations. But whenever I quote from the very same Bible and debunk your misapplication of scriptures, all of a sudden, the portion I quoted might not be an accurate English translation. You are a piece of work; do you know that?


You've attempted to shift the topic every single time I've asked you direct questions that debunk the Trinity. That's known as being evasive aka dishonest--in case you haven't figured it out.

Now you have the audacity to present me with questions about verses from Revelations that you expect me to answer—after you dodged mine! Since you don't understand basic Bible teachings, how do you expect to grasp what's written in Revelation—which is a book filled with symbolism?


You have a lot to learn. Your first lesson is to learn humility. When you learn that, you will understand the importance of answering direct questions, rather than presenting evasive responses.

mangler what makes you opt for a Non-Trinitarian view? I've held a less articulated Trinitarian one for a while now.

One site (Steve Rudd) explains it this way: "Jesus Christ is the creator, not a creature and will always be equal to the Father in this sense. Jn 1:1 says, "and the word was [uncreated] God". However, sometime around the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. We call this choice, the subordination (or down-ranking) of Christ to the Father. Jesus did not give up being God, He merely began to obey the Father as though He were a creature. This is called "Biblical subordination". Bible evidence seems to support the view that the Holy Spirit submits to both the Father and the Son, but it is not a strong case."

Some articles on it here. The first 3 aren't too long:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-subordination.htm

The essential point of the argument is that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit can be equal in being while different in rank.

Rudd says: Most ancient Christians wrote about the fact that Christ was equal as a being, but subordinate in rank. Notice that they did not, as we should not, ever say Christ is a creature. As you can see, it was not until the Nicene period (325 AD) that men started saying Christ was equal in both being and rank to the Father. This represented a departure from both scripture and what almost all Christians from 100-300 AD taught. Jehovah's Witnesses are correct when they emphasize the subordination of Christ to the Father (in rank or power), but outright misrepresent history, when they say the early church viewed Jesus as a creature. It is not surprising that the Nicene Creed overemphasizes the equality of Christ with the Father, since Arius' doctrine of a created Christ was its primary target. The purpose of the Nicene Creed was to emphasize Jesus was equal to the Father as a class of being, and here it was absolutely correct. But the Nicene Creed overemphasized the rank and power equality of Christ with the father, and here it was in error.

This is NOT the "1st TIME ASKING". The record in this thread shows that the last statement you stated in this post is not true.

Your "Question #1" was not a question. It was two questions ( look at what you wrote; ironic! ). Not only that, you used a leading question because you aren't looking for the truth, but a biased answer simply by using the word "apostate". Do you even know what "apostate" means? Was Yeshua talking to "apostate Jews"? Could you show us in "your version of the bible", that these Jews in the passage in Chapter 5 of the "gospel according to John" were "apostate"? Why are you using this word?

If you were looking for the truth and acting on it, you would "speak the truth in love", but there appears to be little love in you because you are receiving teaching from darkness, the Jehovah's Witnesses, who bear no fruit. If you continue to walk in darkness, and lead others away from the truth, that "Jesus was a Jew" and he followed "G-d's commands", the Torah, then you will among those that Hashem ("G-d") has warned and Yeshua will say to you ( if he hasn't already ) that:

1) Yeshua and the Father know you, your works and your fruit;
2) that "you're in trouble": darkness;
and 3) Yeshua "never knew you" ( in context of Mt 7:23).

Don't be among those that Yeshua never knew in Mt 7:15-23 but bear the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control ( Gal 5:22 ). Almost everyone could care less if you had the truth, if you didn't bear any fruit whatsoever.

In your "question #1", no you didn't ask a direct question; in fact, the record of that post shows quite clearly that you wrote two questions. The "Living Word" Yeshua himself rarely answered questions directly, don't you remember, even by reading your translation of the New Testament writings? Answering questions directly or indirectly isn't what that matters, but answering in truth and I did answer you "correctly" in question #1 despite it being two questions; more importantly, I did not use your unjustified word "apostate" in my answer because I was being truthful. According to the "written Word" in Jn 5:18, both Yochanan ( at the time ) and the Jews ( those Yeshua was speaking to ) thought that Yeshua was claiming "equality with G-d". I would write more on this, but you don't believe "Salvation comes from the Jews" simply by your use of "apostate Jews" and from your preconceived supersessionist idea that the Jews are no longer "G-d's chosen people".

I could have written "what do you think about what Jesus said from that faulty translation of yours, the NWT, that you use?" which really states the truth about the NWT, but that wouldn't come across as speaking the truth in love, because Jehovah's Witnesses cherish their version of the "bible". If you knew the truth, you would know that the NWT has been changed several times to fit "Watch Tower theology" and that you ought to abandon using that translation altogether. You ought to read Bruce Metzger's criticism of the NWT in this thread.

No, I am telling you truth: I am not Trinitarian and you are the one that is not truthful: this is not the "1st time you are asking" ( the last statement of your post ) and those Jews Yeshua spoke to in Jn 5:18 were not "apostate" even though you were taught to believe that or came to that unjustified conclusion yourself.

You also completely misunderstood what I wrote; I did not use Jn 5:18 to prove anything like the equality of Yeshua and "G-d" at all, and that's the truth, but because you are in darkness, you don't know the truth.

You then claim that you used Jn 5:19 to show that Yeshua contradicted that he was not equal to "G-d" and then used Jn 14:28 out of context to support your argument. You really have a great misunderstanding about what Yeshua was trying to say to his audience!. Jn 5:19 states that whatever the Father is doing, Yeshua is doing too! Not only that, but in Jn 5:22, the Father does not judge anyone and all judgment is entrusted to the Son, so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Until you see the truth of what Yeshua was trying to say, you will still think that "the Word was created", a heretical belief connected with Arianism, you will be dishonoring the Son, and you will be diminishing the supremacy of Christ in connection with all of Creation: for Hashem ("G-d") created "the world" through "the Logos" ( the "preexisting Jesus" ) as stated in the first chapter of "John" and the first chapter of "Colossians".

If you were really searching for the truth, you would know with certainty that Yochanan ( "John" ) was not the sole author of that entire book in the New Testament which is called "John". You're not really interested in findng the truth, but only interested in spreading the "Watch Tower version of the truth" which is leading people away from the truth of the "saving gospel of Jesus Christ".

Actually, you are distorting what Yeshua and the author are trying to convey in Jn 5:18-24 to fit the Jehovah's Witnesses distorted and spiritually bankrupt theology rather than trying to find the truth about what Yeshua was saying and why "John" wrote that passage. Unfortunately, you're in good company because many "Christians" don't fully understand what Yeshua is really saying and what "John" is conveying. Try to undertand what Yeshua is saying about himself.

You're also using the words of Yeshua in Jn 14:28 out of context when the two questions you pose in your "question #1" are really about "equality" and why the Jews wanted to kill Yeshua in the context of chapter 5 of "John". So you aren't even really asking an appropriate question #2; just because equality and "greater than" are used in the same book, you're trying to tie these passages together! This is because you are so interested in proving your erroneous beliefs concerning who the "false Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses" is, rather than the true "Word of G-d", Yeshua HaMashiach, who was not a "Jehovah's Witness", but 100% Jewish and was a practicing Jew.

You're only using part of Jn 5:19 to support your position; if you read further, in an uncorrupted version of the New Testament ( not the NWT ), you will see that whatever the Father does, Yeshua also does in like manner.

You also made an erroneous assertion:
I've never made that claim, so you're just not speaking the truth, but you're in darkness and will not know the truth but use deceit because the Watch Tower Society uses deceit.

Concerning the passage Genesis 41:39-40, read it for yourself in the Spirit of Truth.

If you think your case debunks the Trinity and it's a "slam dunk", you're badly mistaken because you are using scripture out of context.

Who's the Artful Dodger? You haven't even answered any one of those 5 questions concerning the book of Revelation that I asked you and I had the courtesy and patience to answer yours! Not only that, you've given the name of "Christ" a bad name in a public forum because of the tenor and means by which you post and write. You're simply fortunate that nobody on twoplustwo has yet reported you for simply trying to spread Jehovah's Witnesses false teaching.

You're also mistaken to think that "the bible" is the source of wisdom from "Jehovah"; the true source of wisdom is Hashem ( the "G-d" of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), not the "Word of G-d" as in the "bible", not me and not you. I give credit to Hashem, "the Word of G-d" and the Spirit of Truth for the light I have received.

Once again, you don't know the truth that I am not Trinitarian. Your walking in darkness leads you to false conclusions of who I am and what I believe, but the same can be said for Shaul, Yeshua and "G-d".

Jehovah's Witnesses are heretical. I'm not the only one that would state this, but believers and most "Christians" would say this; more importantly, what would Hashem ("G-d") or Yeshua say about Jehovah's Witnesses? Someone has noted that there are 101 strange beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses ( from: http://watchthetower.net/reasons.html ), but I'll simply list the "top 21":

I answered all three questions. You have not answered any of those five. You may believe I have not answered you, but I have; not only that, I gave you more than the answer, so that maybe you could find more truth for yourself. If anything, you are trying to hide the truth, by simply trying to prove what you believe: erroneous teaching from Jehovah's Witnesses. If you had the Spirit of Truth, you would know the truth and that I was trying to lead you to the truth, but you didn't understand that at all, just as you will often not understand the true "gospel that saves" from the words of Yeshua HaMashiach. It saddens me that many are caught up in the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses and have a difficult time leaving and receiving the free gift of life Yeshua HaMashiach promises to those that trust in him. If you were to throw away your NWT, pick up a better "bible" translation in English ( more than one would be even better ), prayed that "G-d" would open your eyes to the truth of the gospel, and started reading the four gospel accounts in the Spirit of Truth, you would have a much better understanding of the "true gospel" and thereby have the assurance of salvation, something you don't have by being taught by Jehovah's Witnesses.

You search the scriptures in vain, but you should really look for, find and follow the "True Christ": Yeshua HaMashiach, "the Word of Life". I was hinting that the English translations are not perfect and you should have taken that hint to find out for yourself, if you were intellectually honest, that the NWT is a biased translation and others have posted serious statements concerning the NWT.

Yes, I agree with one thing: I have a lot to learn, but at least IMHO, I can say that! You also have a lot to learn: if you continue to teach from doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses, you will be fighting not just me, but with:

the Father = "the One True G-d",
the Ruach HaKodesh = "the Spirit of Truth,
and Yeshua HaMashiach = "Christ Jesus".


Yeshua didn't answer a lot of questions directly, so I'm just following the Master. Read the New Testamant: there were several occasions where he did not answer directly and he spoke tough and confrontational words to the "religious". If you simply read through the book of "John" in the Spirit of Truth, you would know this.

You've changed the subject and not answered those five questions. Those questions aren't hard and you can answer them in any way you want!

If I had to pick just one verse, it would be Jn 17:3, but there are so many other passages and 1 Co 8:5-6 seems quite appropriate too: the Father is the "One True G-d" and there is one "Lord", Yeshua the Messiah. The formulation of the Trinity has strong language and instead of stating "Yeshua is divine", the statement many Trinitarians use is that "Yeshua is G-d"; this is couched in extremely offensive terminology for Jews, symptomatic of a strong antisemitic movement throughout the "churches" as evidenced by anti-quartodecimanism in the 4th century CE. Most "Christians" don't understand the difference between the Tetragrammaton and Elohim because they don't want to learn about Jewish thought. In a previous post, I give a link for less offensive language to use so as to not offend Jews, but most "Christians" don't understand this. The "true gospel" is offensive enough!

In your post, I pretty much agree with Rudd and am pleasantly surprised to see this because there aren't many people that are really looking and finding real answers. The reason why the language seemed so strong was to combat specific heresies and chief among them was "Arian subordination".

Somewhat related, here's a very interesting article I recently read by Mark Kinzer:

http://www.kesherjournal.com/Issue-2...the-Living-God

Thanks for the link.

PART 1 OF 4

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
You claim the New World Translation is corrupted, which of course is your opinion. You and other Jehovah's Witness bashers have never been able to present any evidence of corrupted verses in the New World Translation. The fact that I routinely quote scriptures and identify them with Bible book, chapter, and verse should have indicated to you—and everyone—that my intent is that others follow along in their own Bible and confirm what I'm quoting. In other words, I would be a complete idiot to be quoting verses that are different from what's in other people's Bibles.


In any event, regarding your above complaint that I used only part of John 5:19 as proof that Jesus was rebutting the apostate Jews, are you suggesting that had I not highlighted part of the verse, it would have shown that Jesus was not denying his supposed equality with Jehovah?

Below are the verses you yourself quoted where Jesus rebutted the Jews that were accusing him of making himself equal to God. Your complaint is that the portion I highlighted in red doesn't tell the whole story. Well, here it is again with the highlighted portion for ease of reference. I challenge you to show this forum where that verse says anything other than what the highlighted portion says.

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
Notice the rest of verse 19 from YOUR quotation that I did not highlight in red.

TRANSLATION: Jesus says he is imitating the Father—which indicates subservience. At no time does the Bible say the Father imitates Jesus, whether in heaven or on earth. It is always Jesus imitating Jehovah.

I presented the portion of John 5:19 from your Bible quotation, which is "not corrupted." Even when reading the entire verse, it makes no difference because it does not change the fact that Jesus said he cannot do anything without following the Father's example—indicating he is subservient. Now notice John 5:20 and 21, again from your Bible version, and keep your eyes on the words highlighted in red.


ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
Do you get the idea? Is any of this sinking in at all? that the Father Jehovah is superior and is showing/demonstrating and giving to the subservient Jesus Christ—the CREATED only-BEGOTTEN angelic son, the pre-human Jesus Christ?


"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-BEGOTTEN son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14)



DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

PART 2 OF 4

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
There you go with your finger-pointing, while you avoid looking in that great big mirror I've been telling you about.

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
Spoken like a loyal Trinitarian. You prove what you are everytime you defend Trinity. Stop lying to yourself for once. The saying: "Actions speak louder than words," applies in your case. You repeatedly defend the Trinity and have even gone to the extreme of finding out-of-context verses that you THINK prove Trinity. On top of that, you accuse Jehovah's Witnesses of heresy for rejecting the dogma. The entire time you lyingly insist you are not Trinitarian.


If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is a duck.



You are a Trinitarian!


ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
Look in the nearest mirror.


ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
The book of Revelation is way above your head. You don't even understand the elementary things, including the fact that the source of religious truth and wisdom from Jehovah is found only in God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.

You can't even get it through your head that Jesus Christ and Jehovah God are two separate and distinct individuals and are not part of a pagan Trinity. You are crawling—spiritually speaking. If you can't even walk yet—spiritually speaking, how can you expect to run by trying to understand the book of Revelation, which is full of symbolic language?

Furthermore, since you've thus far been doing the dodging routine by refusing to answer direct questions I've asked you (and I asked those questions of you before you even mentioned Revelations), don't hold your breath waiting for me answer anything coming from you.

PART 3 OF 4

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
You stated in your above post (partially quoted) that the Jews who accused Jesus of being equal to God were not apostate. Keep in mind that these are the same Jews that turned around and had Jesus Christ executed. Also keep in mind that these same Jews accused Jesus Christ of performing miracles by means of the ruler of the demons, despite the fact that they knew from the prophecies that the Messiah would come performing wondrous signs. They knew who Jesus was but rejected him because they wanted a political messiah to free them from Roman domination. They were not interested in a spiritual messiah like Jesus Christ who came to teach them spiritual truths and reconcile them with God.

"{22} Then they brought him [Jesus] a demon-possessed man, blind and dumb; and he cured him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. {24} At hearing this, the Pharisees said: 'This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons." (Matthew 12:22, 24)



Those are the same Jews you are insisting were not apostate, despite the proof presented by their ACTIONS. So you accept their words—over Jesus Words—when they said Jesus was making himself equal to God. Although Jesus twice denied this at John 5:19 and John 14:28, you insist the apostate Jews had it right and that even John believed Jesus was equal to God. Keep in mind that John himself quoted Jesus at John 14:28 where Jesus said clearly:

"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28 – New American Standard Bible)


In other words, you are lying when you say John believed Jesus was equal to God. Besides, how can you recognize apostasy in others when you are yourself an apostate? You made it clear that the Bible is irrelevant by insisting that all one has to do is love God and love one's neighbors and it matters not what type of falsehoods one believes. According to you, God will forgive all types of falsehoods from religious leaders, including the Trinity in which they have misled people for 1,800 years. The result is that for centuries people have been praying to a nonexistent 3-prong god that's nowhere to be found in the Judeo-Christian Bible. But you accuse me and all Jehovah's Witnesses of heresy!


MEANING OF APOSTATE:
"One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause."
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...entry/apostate

PART 4 OF 4

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
Spoken like a true heretic and apostate. God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, makes it clear that it is the source of spiritual wisdom. Common sense tells us that Jehovah is the ULTIMATE source of wisdom and knowledge. You know full well that God does not communicate directly with humans anymore and for that reason, he gave us his instructions in his inspired word, the Bible. But you insist on playing the fool.

"{16} ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)


"{20} For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. {21} For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

ALTER2EGO -to- MANGLER241:
Wait a minute! You are the one downloading slanderous crap about Jehovah's Witnesses from the Internet—for which I already put Splendor on "Ignore." And you're the one who has been insulting me and making derogatory remarks about my religious affiliation from the get-go, several of which you repeated in the portion quoted above. But according to you, I'm giving Christ a bad name on this forum!

Below, as a reminder, is what you said in just one of your recent posts. Needless to say, the conversation between us is permanently over. The slanderous and error-filled crap from the Internet was bad enough. But your insulting remarks have gone on far too long. They've become more bold and outrageous as the conversation between us has continued.


You may now join Splendor and the other 11 that are already on my "Ignore" list. You make an even dozen. From this point forward, nothing else you post on this website will be visible to me. You are one of the most disgusting and hypocritical theists I've had the misfortune of meeting online!

INSULT #1 FROM MANGLER241:
INSULT #2 FROM MANGLER241:
INSULT #3 FROM MANGLER241:
INSULT #4 FROM MANGLER241:
INSULT #5 FROM MANGLER241:

The proper name of "G-d" is not "Jehovah".

person 1 : Your wrong, Im right. The bible says so
person 2 : Your wrong, Im right. The bible says so
person 1 : Your wrong, Im right. The bible says so
...
...
....
....
.

Alter2Ego,

Let's get to the point.

Let's talk about how the Jehovah's Witness cult believes that Jesus was not God in
the flesh, but Michael the archangel in the flesh. So, that they believe that
Jesus was not divine in nature.

Let's talk about how they purposefully distorted the English translation from
Greek for John 1:1 so that it doesn't say that Jesus was God, but that Jesus
was "a" God.

ALTER2EGO -to- FESTERING ZIT:
If Jehovah's Witnesses is a cult, what does that make your religion--and all other religions, for that matter?

ANSWER: A cult!


DEFINITION OF CULT -- WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY
As you can see from the above, by definition, all religions are cults. You have just been schooled.


John 1:1 -- KING JAMES VERSION (Trinitarian translators)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


John 1:1 -- NEW WORLD TRANSLATION (by Jehovah's Witnesses)
"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."



QUESTION TO FESTERING ZIT: Are you claiming the Watchtower Society aka Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones that translated the latter part of John 1:1 as "the word was a god"?




Let me know.

At least we know we're in for a mature debate.