No i just cherry picked it. It was used against me when i brought up the injustices of punishing the son for the actions of the father.

I think you should finish reading Ezekiel 18 if you can.

I mean a physical act, an occurence that would make you say "God did that". If you think God doesnt kill people, what does God do? Does he make tsunamis? Does he cause cancer to go into remission? Does he cause one child to inherit a gene resulting in a short, painful life and the other to miss the gene and live a long, happy life?

Are you saying God could have prevented a murder or he couldnt?

It seems you're saying "No, because he gave the murderer free will." which is fine, but ignores the actual question - did he have a choice in granting free will? If he did, then he could have prevented the murder by not giving the murderer free will.

You think a baby dying of whooping cough is explained by free will? How?

If something happened so that she died at 92 rather than at 93 then whatever that something was caused her death, no?

No. In fact I think there must be something morally right about setting the world up to be temporary - since I think God did it that way, could have done it differently, and is Good. I'm not sure how you can grant God the description "good" if you're so reticent about ascribing any responsibilty for any actual physical act to him.

1. I don't think it's biblical that God controls everything that happens in this world.

2. I don't think an omnipotent God must control everything in this world.

Neither of these are required for my argument to be sound, so I'm not going to show either of them to be true (plus I think they're false).

The argument rests on whether refraining from preventing an act counts as being responsible for the act. Free will is an illusory defence unless God is compelled to grant free will (the attack on omnipotence I mentioned earlier) - since by granting free will he's still chosen not to prevent a subsequently freely chosen action.

I'm just going off what you said. You seem to think that hell on Earth is some how equal to hell portrayed in the Bible. This is the third request for you to show me some scripture that states this. This is nothing but your assumption.

Exception not the rule. Can anyone choose to have a career like Oprah?

I hope you realize that a good portion of Christians disagree with you here. I think Jib would disagree. There's the age of accountability and plenty of other ways to explain this dilemma. I don't fault you for not taking the easy way out as long as you agree that God creates people who do not have the slightest chance of getting into heaven strictly based on the environment they were born into. Do you agree?

Awesome, so we agree that God committed genocide. Instead of being God like he resorted to something even humans are capable of. He's more like us than he is God.

You insist that others read the Bible. In the same manner, I insist you study another religion.

So free will does not exist. I agree. If I was to believe in every story in the Bible then the only people that ever had pure free will were Adam and Eve. Free will after that is built upon others successes and errors so it isn't free will.

It's complete randomness. You happen to be on the lucky side of randomness at work... this doesn't make you or your theological package the correct one. You just happen to be born into a presumably fortunate situation. My apologies if you think it is anything other than that.

"The whole world was corrupt and violent." "All their thoughts were consistently and totally evil". How can any race recover from that? I'm sorry, like i said, wild bears don't grow up don't grow up to become anything else w/out some outside interaction. And if every single person in that time was like this, there is no way out for them. Earth is doomed. And Noah should not have to suffer because of that. Seems like earth right before the flood had two of the main characteristics of biblical hell.

Not sure what you mean by this. My point was, that you can choose (free will)
to turn your life around for good, unless there is absolutely no way for you to do it.

Lets say you are born in a decent neighborhood, nice house, good options for you to go with in regards to employment/ success in life. But you start doing drugs and end up living in some run down apartment in not the greatest city. Are your kids going to have it as easy as you had it when you are a kid?

He is not trying to control us to the point where we have no decisions in life.
But man's decisions led to: "The whole world was corrupt and violent." "All their thoughts were consistently and totally evil". What else is He supposed to do? They weren't listening to Him. They were totally evil.
I insist you read the Bible because your showing no knowledge whatsoever of the big picture, so i am like 99% certain you have not read your Bible. We are not talking about another religion here so i don't know what your angle is but if you keep this up i will just stop discussing with you. I highly doubt you have studied another religion more than Christianity anyways.


Man, I have already stated that eventually it got to the point where man knew no good. They still had free will, but all they knew was evil, so it was free will to choose w/e evil they wanted to do. God did not make this happen, man did, based on their free will choices over time. Man loved to sin and it took them over. Now get over this free will bit, because its obvious we have free will and have had free will.

How is it randomness? None of my ancestors hit the lotto afaik. Ya everything's random....The choices you make today will affect your children in some way, nothing random about that.

Nor should any child that is incapable of reasoning. There is no such thing as a corrupt and violent 2 month old. A 2 month old child was no less pure than Noah himself simply because they cannot commit a sinful act. You say they should die because their future wasn't so bright. Was there no room for the innocent-through-incapability on the ark?

This is just your assumption and unless you can provide me scripture that supports your assumption then we'll go in circles here from this point on.

No they wouldn't. You're failing to see the bigger picture. By your standards, someone who was born into a different culture and religion and may have never even heard of Christianity is going to hell. If a child is born into a Muslim family and dies at 1 year old for whatever reason, that child is going to hell. That is what you believe correct? You believe that God is sending people who do not know the Christian God and people who cannot comprehend the concept of God (babies) straight to hell. Is that correct?

Let's just agree that genocide was the only way out. I don't really have a dog in this fight other than to prove that God used genocide first hand and that is an evil act.

Ok Pletho.. what's next? Bible lessons via Skype?

The choices you make today were made available by random sets of circumstances that built you up into the position where you are now to make those choices. Many random events will happen tomorrow that will change your life slightly or possibly in a very big way. You are however, fairly lucky in terms of the life in which you were born into I assume. Some are fairly unlucky and born into complete poverty in a 3rd world country. Is it one's purpose to be born into very dire situations?

There is such thing as a 2 month old child with NO HOPE. If anything God saved those children. Bible verses point to that if a child has not reached the point of when they know right from wrong, they aren't going to hell when they die. Seems perfect to me. Is Noah supposed to go kidnap these children from their evil parents? Ya, good luck with that. These evil people chose to have children (free will).


Um... i provided scripture.
"All their thoughts were consistently and totally evil" Genesis 6:5
"Now the earth had become corrupt in God's sight, and it was filled with violence." God observed all this corruption in the world, and he saw violence and depravity everywhere.(I'm sure the children are in a better place)

You can say biblical hell is worse, and i would agree. But they were comparable.

That still doesn't disprove that the world man chose to create had no hope for any good.
By my standards? I am not making that claim, you are. I never said young children are going to hell. I don't decide who goes to heaven or hell, God does, so don't be putting words in my mouth.
This what you believe obviously. But for some reason your trying to make me say this. I think this discussion is over because you are the one failing to see the big picture and now it's at the point where you are just making things up.
Let's just agree that genocide was the only way out. I don't really have a dog in this fight other than to prove that God used genocide first hand and that is an evil act. These questions are ridiculous, were done here.

Not Pletho, and not with you.

Keep thinking that. You in control your decisions, believe it or not. Pretty funny you think everything is random. Proverbs 16:33. Proverbs 16:9.

Please give at least 3 very clear and in the right context references to this please.

Why? Because if you think that God controls EVERYTHING in this world, then where does the devil fit in?

Let's reference some other exchanges regarding this:
Here's another:
There are other gems even in your last post:
Are there 2 month old children alive today with "no hope" in terms of getting to heaven? As a result they will end up in hell?

More:
So killing them off was the best thing to do. hehehe

There's a few contradictions I believe.

Jibninjas doesnt believe the claims you've quoted - he thinks they are required for my argument to be sound and is asking me to justify them.

(FWIW, I dont believe them either).

Maybe Noah could of prayed for the children to be healed and protected for their evil parents. Oh wait i forgot babies and small children who cant ask for Gods healing cant get it. Someone should inform all the Christians who pray for there sick children they are wasting their time as God cant interfere unless one asks.

I'm saying they have no hope in this world and we already discussed this. Here you go trying to put words in my mouth again. Now you can go ahead and keep coming to your own conclusions based, but it is pretty obvious your conclusions aren't coming from careful study of the Bible.

"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."Mark 10:14

"I will give the land to your innocent children. You were afraid they would be captured, but they will be the ones who occupy it". Deuteronomy 1:39

"But before he knows right from wrong..." Isaiah

There is quite a few others.... Can you explain to me why you think that children 2 months old are going to hell?


Once again, God saved these children.


Who said they are born evil? They know enough to listen to their parents, treat their family/friends with respect.If you have an understanding of right and wrong. And you go around killing people. You think that person should go into heaven?

Besides, these kids probably have more of an understanding of the Bible than you.
You keep claiming contradictions, but the only thing that is contradicting are the words your putting in my mouth, and what i actutally stated....

It's a perfect storm.

(X(number of Splendour posts) x Y (number of Gunth posts))^z(number of unrelated Splendour links)= F (Facepalm Number Scale)

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You believe that innocent pre-flood children were killed because they were born with no hope. Read the summary of posts above. You stated: "There is such thing as a 2 month old child with NO HOPE." They should be killed or as you put it "God saved these children." God saves by killing? God saves by drowning?

1. God "destroyed" all humans on Earth during the flood. You're answer to this is "How do you know they went to hell?" Splenda's response was that they were reincarnated and it was up to me to prove otherwise lol. Either claim should be able to be backed up in some way through the Bible. I think you are saying that the children just ceased to exist and bypassed hell and faced the 2nd death which is a ceasing to exist. Ok well provide some verses that states this.
   
   
2. Again as quoted up top I stated "Palestinian children are evil and guilty only by association to their environment is what you believe. The punishment for their failures is the 'real' hell". You're response was "Look, God's Word has been available for the Palestinians. It warns it's readers that children will be punished for the sins of their parents." I also said "Palestinian kids who are taught to hate Zionists are born evil" and your response was "Basically". You are saying that a child can go to hell based upon being guilty by association. Now you're back tracking and wish to reside in verses that purportedly show that God has mercy on children... good to see you studied up.

I suggested it and you agreed.. read post summary above.

Go around killing people? Please elaborate. You can know right from wrong, respect your parents and kill people. How many Christian soldiers know right/wrong, respect their friends/family and kill people? Should they be denied heaven?

Yes you are, we were discussing whether or not they have any hope of learning what is good, not whether they had any hope of getting into heaven.



My answer was not how do you know all humans went to hell. Here you are changing what i was saying again. Not providing any verses for you anytime soon.
If you read towards the beginning of the tread you will see where it is stated
that if a child is incapable of knowing right from wrong, then that child is not accountable. I am going to ask you again, if someone knows right from wrong, but then continues to do wrong, should that child not be accountable?
We already discussed this, feel free to answer some of my questions instead of making this conversation go in circles.

I am not going to progress this discussion any further until you stop putting words in my mouth and start answering some questions.

You fooled me guy, at first you made it sound like you were trying to attain some kind of understanding, but it's obvious now that is not the case.

You stated earlier that God "Punishes the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generation." Pre-flood children had no hope because of everyone on Earth was corrupt.. this includes the child's family. God, as you stated "Punishes the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generation." You even say "The child would of been way more punished if he/she was raised to live in a world of hell.".. meaning it was better to drown them then to let them live in a "world of hell".

All in all... God punishes the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generation. You admit that God punished children but to a lesser extent by killing them rather than letting them continue to live on Earth. Punishment is a done deal according to you... does punishment = hell? I would think so but prove me otherwise.

Just wow Gunth. I appreciate the exchange but this is getting silly. Here is what you said (2 instances) with regard to where all the children/humans went when they died in the flood:
Did you state this or someone else? Please link me to the post.

They should be held accountable but to what standards? Your God's standards? Considering that your God demands that all worship Him it seems that a large portion of the world has started off wrong. He commands that there should be no other gods before Him. Is someone who is born Hindu and becomes a devout Hindu continuing to do wrong? Perhaps you want to keep the issue simpler in terms of every day right and wrong but what does that matter when you aren't even in the correct theological ballpark?

Where did I claim you stated something that you in fact did not state? I'd be happy to correct myself and wouldn't be surprised if I did make such an error. Point it out to me. Also provide a list of questions that I have yet to answer as I feel like I have answered most if not all of them.

Is anyone besides me even able to follow this guy's spin?

I'll respond in a bit, got tables going with different games, and don't have it in me to play this one with you too.

I'm not a good debater in terms of structure and keeping on topic (among other things)... which is why I'm a fundy magnet.

Are you saying i have no knowledge of the Bible?

It seems you are somewhat a fundamentalist in your Christian beliefs imo. That doesn't really bring into question your knowledge of the Bible however. People can have equal Biblical knowledge and come to different conclusions in what the Bible teaches. Compare Pletho to Aaron W.

And what kind of information in the Bible are you providing? All your doing is saying "look, these people died, that's bad." While you twist my words around and put words in my mouth. You provide no background to anything you say. Yet you want to claim that i have no understanding of the Bible. And on top of it all you keep telling me to try another religion for some reason, like that has anything to do with what we are discussing.

You skip like every question i ask you. So i don't see how i can continue this discussion with you.

See post #167... I'll wait for you to respond to that post.

Take a look at the previous posts, you have skipped over plenty. Like i said, not going to progress this any further until you address some of my points. And points that i actually said please, not points that you would like me to say.

lol in post #167 I said:

Please point out the errors I've made and the questions I never answered.