What kind of evidence do atheists need to believe in god?
11-19-2014
, 11:32 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
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-Colonists conquer land, lots of land.
-Colonists divide chunks of the land equally for the heads of the households (numbers 33:54)
-family grows plants and raises livestock on the land, then sells what it doesn't eat. Nobody needs to look for employment, they're self sustained, but they have that option.
-family grows prosperous
-father dies and chops land into portions for his sons, oldest son gets double portion, daughters marry other guys and move onto their estates.
so on and so on...
-someones in the country says, "farming is boring, lets make a new legal system where we're all going to be superstars and we sell our farms"
-he gets executed under the law
what could go wrong?
-Colonists divide chunks of the land equally for the heads of the households (numbers 33:54)
-family grows plants and raises livestock on the land, then sells what it doesn't eat. Nobody needs to look for employment, they're self sustained, but they have that option.
-family grows prosperous
-father dies and chops land into portions for his sons, oldest son gets double portion, daughters marry other guys and move onto their estates.
so on and so on...
-someones in the country says, "farming is boring, lets make a new legal system where we're all going to be superstars and we sell our farms"
-he gets executed under the law
what could go wrong?
11-19-2014
, 11:37 PM
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I'm simply painting a mosaic.
11-19-2014
, 11:40 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Do you even know what a mosaic is?
11-19-2014
, 11:44 PM
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the important thing is to illustrate life under God's government, I think my post added to that illustration
11-19-2014
, 11:57 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
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You may think what you want. You may paint whatever "mosaic" you want. But you would do well to not delude yourself into thinking to yourself that you've actually made an argument for something.
11-20-2014
, 12:02 AM
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I think I'm bound to give an accurate depiction, if you have any disagreements you may post them.
11-20-2014
, 12:26 AM
Carpal \'Tunnel
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If you think that trying to convince someone of a theological truth by painting a naive "mosaic" in which you pick and choose things and create an arbitrary narrative is a meaningful way to go about portraying God, you're doing it wrong.
11-20-2014
, 12:46 AM
Join Date: Nov 2014
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Following Christ is a good decision...
Oh so your a supporter of the law? Your general tone didn't come across as consistent with that. If you'd like to illustrate the glorious kingdom yourself, don't let me get in your way. 
By all means, tell us a little about God's government in action.
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The greatest commandment includes the statement that one should love God with all your mind. Trying to present something that you think is of God in a manner that does not show any engagement of the mind is likely an inaccurate portrayal of the thing that is of God.
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If you think that trying to convince someone of a theological truth by painting a naive "mosaic" in which you pick and choose things and create an arbitrary narrative is a meaningful way to go about portraying God, you're doing it wrong.
11-20-2014
, 01:04 AM
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What does that even mean?
There is no "God's government."
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By all means, tell us a little about God's government in action.
11-20-2014
, 01:31 AM
Join Date: Nov 2014
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In that case, why don't you tell everyone about Aaronanity?
11-20-2014
, 01:45 AM
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Why would I tell everyone about something that doesn't exist?
11-20-2014
, 07:26 AM
mmm mmm good
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,565
Quote:
If I was authoritative about it, I'd say you're obtuse for not accepting the evidence. Since I'm not, I only say that I'm justified, but I believe you are also justified. You have repeatedly claimed that I am NOT justified because the evidence is unacceptable, and this strikes me as authoritative, otherwise, you would accept that my perspective is rational, and not criticize it.
Thank you :P
11-20-2014
, 12:10 PM
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,312
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When I asked, you identified your personal experiences as the main reason for your belief. That's the only reason I've been talking about cognitive biases ever since, because I think there's a good case for why the new knowledge about them and the implications it has for your interpretations should give you cause for serious concern. I don't think that decisions based on personal interpretations of experiences that fall into a category that could be called 'supernatural' shouldn't be trusted to the point that you can base a belief in a deity on them and consider it 'true' and 'justified'.
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But I don't consider your perspective rational. I think you ignore credible arguments that undermine your primary evidence but go ahead and believe anyway. That doesn't seem rational to me. Even if I were the type to believe in gods, I would be paralysed by the choice on offer. I genuinely have no idea how theists choose one god out of the bewildering choice and then insist that they are right.
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I can't accept a conclusion for which there is no apparent evidence. Take my 'net-negative' view as a counter example. I may be wrong that religion is a net-negative but at least I can give you evidence, I can point to religiously inspired wars, torture, genocide, mutilations, I can show people being happy and reassured because of religion, show that it helps people to overcome grief and sadness and fear, to create great works of art and literature, I can show how it creates distrust, misery, arrogance, a belief that we are not ultimately responsible for our actions etc etc etc. Real things that can be measured and don't only exist in my head.
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I never said that the majority were atheists, I said that the majority of people on this planet don't believe in your specific version of your god. I wouldn't even say that you were in a majority amongst the people that do believe in the same god as you.
Thank you :P
Thank you :P
11-20-2014
, 12:17 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
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When I asked, you identified your personal experiences as the main reason for your belief. That's the only reason I've been talking about cognitive biases ever since, because I think there's a good case for why the new knowledge about them and the implications it has for your interpretations should give you cause for serious concern.
In general, your misrepresentation of science and scientific literature has been a serious problem in your posting, and your unwillingness to address those issues is a serious problem for your intellectual honesty.
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But I don't consider your perspective rational.
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I think you ignore credible arguments that undermine your primary evidence but go ahead and believe anyway.
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Even if I were the type to believe in gods, I would be paralysed by the choice on offer. I genuinely have no idea how theists choose one god out of the bewildering choice and then insist that they are right.
That you would go so far as to try to create a dividing line between "beliefs" and "suspicions" as you did earlier stands as clear evidence of the types of rationalizations you have to go through in order to protect your self-understanding from allowing for the possibility that you might be doing the same thing that others are doing.
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I can't accept a conclusion for which there is no apparent evidence.
So it's not the evidence that's driving things, but the conclusion. As I've stated many times and in many places, you have a clear tendency to ignore evidence that works against your position and cling to the smallest things that you can find to support your position. Thus, your ability to distinguish evidence is clearly called into question.
11-20-2014
, 02:04 PM
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 745
Why do you lie and say God doesn't have a government?
Why do you support legislation when God says you can't?
Why do you quote a commandment as if you agree with it and ignore the rest of the law?
It just seems to me that you throw away most of the bible and invent your own religion.
Why do you support legislation when God says you can't?
Why do you quote a commandment as if you agree with it and ignore the rest of the law?
It just seems to me that you throw away most of the bible and invent your own religion.
11-20-2014
, 03:29 PM
mmm mmm good
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,565
Quote:
My experiences are an important part of why I am a theist, but it is not the only thing. If my experiences did not line up with the bible and with the teachings of Christ, I would never have made it this far, and I would have agreed with your objections, and discounted my experiences. If I had not met people that agreed with and shared my experiences and taught me about Christianity, I may not have put so much faith in it.
Also, you say people have shared your experiences? This is new, I thought they weren't something anyone else could confirm or deny?
The bible is about the worst evidence you could possibly offer and it certainly doesn't prove anything divine, we've had this conversation. You cannot use the bible to prove the divine without begging the question. At best it's a historical record of highly dubious authenticity, given how dubious most historical records are and how many authors it had, how long the stories were written after the events (some of which weren't even witnessed by anyone) and how many times it's been translated since it was collated by people whose motives are unknown, and my feeling about that is 'so what', it doesn't prove anything.
11-20-2014
, 04:36 PM
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The Torah does not create a government in the common definition and understanding of the term. I've spent several posts trying to explain this to you, but you haven't actually addressed it.
Perhaps you should start by explaining what you mean by a "government" and then elaborate onward to whatever it is you think "God's government" actually is.
I will ask you to cite the verse you're referring to, because "legislation" as we understand it today is very distinct from what would be understood to the original readers of the Torah.
Because I have a theological disagreement with you about the nature of "the law" and I've pointed that out to you already in a previous post. I don't interpret the meaning in the same way, so your question doesn't appear to be meaningful.
This is an odd criticism as you seem to be only focusing on a couple books. Others have brought in information from other parts of the Bible, and you basically dismiss them out of hand.
It seems to me that you're doing the thing you're criticizing me of doing.
Perhaps you should start by explaining what you mean by a "government" and then elaborate onward to whatever it is you think "God's government" actually is.
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Why do you support legislation when God says you can't?
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Why do you quote a commandment as if you agree with it and ignore the rest of the law?
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It just seems to me that you throw away most of the bible and invent your own religion.
It seems to me that you're doing the thing you're criticizing me of doing.
11-20-2014
, 04:58 PM
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There was nothing about your experiences that told you that it was Jesus without having to get external confirmation?
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Also, you say people have shared your experiences? This is new, I thought they weren't something anyone else could confirm or deny?
This really isn't that complicated.
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I'm really not sure what you're talking about. I point out that you can't trust your personal experiences, and that alone
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... and you seem to think that I think that I'm proving that your god doesn't exist. That's not what is happening here.
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The bible is about the worst evidence you could possibly offer and it certainly doesn't prove anything divine, we've had this conversation. You cannot use the bible to prove the divine without begging the question. At best it's a historical record of highly dubious authenticity, given how dubious most historical records are and how many authors it had, how long the stories were written after the events (some of which weren't even witnessed by anyone) and how many times it's been translated since it was collated by people whose motives are unknown, and my feeling about that is 'so what', it doesn't prove anything.
11-20-2014
, 07:49 PM
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 745
I early on posted something like "it has laws for commerce, laws for property, laws for excessive behavior, laws for foreign relations, etc...looks like a government to me."
But yet it's true that it's a very unique government, in that it's the only one where it's leaders aren't exploiting their population with a massive tax code under the guise of the publics benefit, protection racket, fiat money, etc.
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Perhaps you should start by explaining what you mean by a "government"
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and then elaborate onward to whatever it is you think "God's government" actually is.
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I will ask you to cite the verse you're referring to, because "legislation" as we understand it today is very distinct from what would be understood to the original readers of the Torah.
1Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Malachi 4
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Mathew 21
43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”
William Blackstone - No enactment of man can be considered law unless it conforms to the law of God.
Last edited by Herbavorus_Rex; 11-20-2014 at 08:04 PM.
11-20-2014
, 08:17 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 30,132
Quote:
It's an unusual argument to make since the word government isn't difficult to comprehend and the differences between meanings are minimal.
I early on posted something like "it has laws for commerce, laws for property, laws for excessive behavior, laws for foreign relations, etc...looks like a government to me."
I early on posted something like "it has laws for commerce, laws for property, laws for excessive behavior, laws for foreign relations, etc...looks like a government to me."
For example, such laws could be enacted under the following forms of government:
* Democracy
* Kingship
* Dictatorship
So in what sense is it that this is a prescribed government?
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How about "a particular system used for controlling a country, state, etc."
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I've already made a few posts illustrating what the nation would look like, specifically the natural economy that results from being born with a free lot of land (numbers 33:54). All other laws protect that foundation essentially. More pieces (of my Mosaic) will likely be on the way.
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Deut. 4:1-2
1Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Malachi 4
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
1Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Malachi 4
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
"Legislation" is an agreement between people. To say that "legislation" is adding to God's commandments is just silly. There's no context in which what qualifies as "legislation" can remotely be seen as putting words into God's mouth.
Furthermore, none of this actually talks about a government. I don't know why this is so hard for you, but apparently you just don't know the difference between a law and a government, or a set of laws and a government. There's a substantive difference between them.
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Mathew 21
43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”
43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”
Quote:
William Blackstone - No enactment of man can be considered law unless it conforms to the law of God.
Last edited by Aaron W.; 11-20-2014 at 08:32 PM.
11-20-2014
, 10:52 PM
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 745
If you personally wouldn't call the set of laws that govern the actions of the people of a particular nation a government, I don't care.
11-20-2014
, 11:08 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 30,132
Or are you saying that God legislated the book of Deuteronomy?
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If you personally wouldn't call the set of laws that govern the actions of the people of a particular nation a government, I don't care.
11-20-2014
, 11:13 PM
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 745
Fwiw, If I had some employees working on my estate/farm, I would call my instructions on what to do, policy. Obviously I couldn't make them work on Saturday as that violates the Sabbath.
However if I started making rules for other peoples estates, that would be legislating and a no no.
If I were a judge and had to give an uncommon decision to decide a case, it might appear as if I'm legislating, but as long as it were reasonably within the lines of already established law, I'm just enforcing the law.
However if I started making rules for other peoples estates, that would be legislating and a no no.
If I were a judge and had to give an uncommon decision to decide a case, it might appear as if I'm legislating, but as long as it were reasonably within the lines of already established law, I'm just enforcing the law.
11-20-2014
, 11:39 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 30,132
Quote:
However if I started making rules for other peoples estates, that would be legislating and a no no.
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If I were a judge and had to give an uncommon decision to decide a case, it might appear as if I'm legislating, but as long as it were reasonably within the lines of already established law, I'm just enforcing the law.
11-20-2014
, 11:51 PM
Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 30,132
By the way, I find it interesting that you're harping so hard on the Law of Moses. I thought Seventh Day Adventists were all about the Ten Commandments.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/living/the-law-of-god/
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/living/the-law-of-god/
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