what is intelligent design? - Page 5 - Religion, God, and Theology

I was objecting to the bolded sentence in the post by Jibninjas.

You didn't really answer my question. People perceive a lot, they also perceive a mind behind nature. That doesn't mean it exists.

Showing the mutation is random is not enough. The mutation is just a small component of the system. You have to first have, among other things, as system that can deal with a random mutation. How many systems do you know of that you can randomly replace a component or line of code with a random component or line of code and not only still have a working system but in some cases have a better system? That in it of itself if pretty impressive.

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01-24-2013 , 01:54 PM

#102

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,078

Others could speak with more authority on the subject than I, but it seems wrong (or at least missing something very important to understanding natural selection) to me to characterize it in the way where the random replacement either works or is an improvement

Isn't it the case rather that the vast majority of times the random mutation is either going to be superfluous because that part of the genetic code is redundant or inactive (a noop to continue the coding analogy), or even detrimental or non-functional? The success of natural selection depends heavily on the very large number of iterations of mutations doesn't it?

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01-24-2013 , 02:36 PM

#103

zumby

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,277

Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

Yes this is right. For any protein required there are usually several genes that all code for it. Therefore, a mutation on one gene generally is neutral, as other genes 'pick up the slack', so to speak.

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01-24-2013 , 02:44 PM

#104

Jibninjas

Stuck in a While loop

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 11,612

Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

For the most part this is correct, although my point still stands.

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01-25-2013 , 08:50 AM

#105

Mightyboosh

mmm mmm good

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 5,560

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

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Even if the mutations were random, that still does not mean that it can exist without a designer let alone must exist without a designer.

I also wouldn't agree with the end of the sentence either, that it means that they 'must' exist without a designer.

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01-25-2013 , 02:33 PM

#106

Aaron W.

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 30,132

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

It might turn out that playing the same game in the other direction also leads to something where two basically identical configurations lead to "designed" and "not designed."

If we accept that the Grand Canyon is not designed, then how would one classify a terraformed reproduction of the Grand Canyon?

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01-25-2013 , 03:23 PM

#107

kb coolman

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,452

As a science project.

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01-26-2013 , 12:22 PM

#108

Jibninjas

Stuck in a While loop

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 11,612

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

I don't think that evolution relies solely on random mutation, if that's what you think I'm saying?

I was objecting to the idea that random mutations couldn't exist without a designer, which is how I interpreted your original sentence:

I also wouldn't agree with the end of the sentence either, that it means that they 'must' exist without a designer.

My original statement was that the existence of random mutation does not necessarily mean that evolution could exist without a designer.

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01-26-2013 , 06:00 PM

#109

kb coolman

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,452

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibninjas

My original statement was that the existence of random mutation does not necessarily mean that evolution could exist without a designer.

This is true. But it doesn't necessarily mean that evolution needs a designer, either. We don't have a way of determining it either way, so it's not very interesting from a scientific perspective.

But let's say evolution could not exist without a designer. What characteristics can we deduce about the Designer from his design?

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